unotaz

Carfax doesn't work if your car is owned by a single member LLC or corporation. All you have to do is change the member and viola, you just sold your car for profit without anybody knowing!

Of course, if PCNA digs harder, they can find out if the members of the company changed names or not.

wolfmobil

Who in his right mind would not like the R especially if like me given a chance to configure and buy at sticker?!

Z356

My understanding is that PCNA will insist you hold your 911R
& not sell it until ONE YEAR from date of acquisition IF you
obtained the 911R allocation because you were eligible for it
via the 918 VIP Program. Why is this a tough scenario? Even
if you hold it for one year & then sell it, you will most likely
recoup your total investment, including interest you would
haver earned on that $200K+ figure had you sold it right
after taking delivery. And regardless all the talk that the
911R is worth much less now that a manual .2 991 gt3 is
available, the chances are pretty much in your favor that
a 918 VIP will be able to sell his/her 911R at a pretty fair
profit (over MSRP & interest!) one year after they initially
bought it! I don't believe this 'one year must hold' rule is
going to be a worrysome financial 'burden' on a 918 VIP
that bought a 911R via PCNA's 918 VIP Program!

I don't think PCNA will let you 'off-the-hook' EVEN if you sell
it back to your Porsche dealer. Otherwise, you & your dealer
could collude to undermine what PCNA is trying to do. And
that is insisting on the ONE YEAR hold before you can sell &
transfer title on your 911R. But if for some extraordinary
reason (e.g. you got news you have Pancreatic cancer & 2
weeks to live), I am sure PCNA will reimburse your cost of
adquisition for the 911R at MSRP & will come pick up your
car at your home! PCNA will find a worthy Porsche customer
that wants that 911R & deliver it to his dealer to sell to this
person at MSRP. That eliminates a profit motive for the 918
VIP on this informal 'sale-back', but the latter gets all of his
money back!

Saludos,
Eduardo
On the road - Red Lodge, Montana

chaosoul

When I have stage 4 cancer, my main concern is of course making sure I am still on good terms with PCNA so I can get the next gen limited car a few years from now Priorities (The Force) are straight (strong) in this one.

Z356

That was not my point...but since you brought it up, indeed PAG
has a unique 'Limited Edition' vehicle for Porsche Stage 4 Cancer
customers! This special model will be able to take you 'quickly' to
places that were not possible (or even imaginable) just a few years
ago:




http://flatsixes.com/porsche-culture...namera-hearse/

So for sure you might want to be in good terms with PCNA to the
bitter end to insure you get to your ultimate destination in style!







Saludos,
Eduardo
On the road - Red Lodge, Montana

unotaz

This is NOT CORRECT. While the 1 year holding period rule was recently announced, it is only effective on the next car, which means it will be the 991.2 GT3. 911R pre-dates this rule.

mooty

tecnhically yes.
and the R while a significant car, it's prolly not YET worth the effort to do this.
P
PCNA trying to chk out member's name to the LLC. i can write up side letter agreements around the LLC. or ADD member to the LLC and have sideletter or amendments stating certain memeber has certain specific right......

not arguing with you, and i appreciate PCNA fighting against flippers (so maybe i can finally buy a car i want), i just find it very hard for them to truly enforce it.

hf1

918 VIP's may have a case to sue Porsche for unilaterally changing the contract terms like this.

chaosoul

Was joking of course


But nice! How long after death do you have to hold on to this limited Panamera Hearse to not get black listed?

Z356

unotaz:

For the sake of making sure our readers get
the most accurate information on any given
subject, I will double check with people that
know the score on the new PCNA guidelines
re: the one year holding period & see if like
you say it doesn't apply to the 911R.

In the meantime, here is what I remember
discussed earlier this year at our forum. The
person that is providing us this information
(Sccchiii) is extremely well connected to
P-dealers, PCNA & PAG. I have also supplied
the links so all of you can go back & check it
out the context of his posts:

Changes Coming to VIP Program
https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...l#post13908422

*

https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...update-71.html

***
The fact is that you, unotaz, have a spotty record of giving
this forum correct information. Do you remember when you
told this forum that 'True PTS cars are painted in a 3rd party
facility'? I do. And unlike Whoopsy, I don't think you ever
apologized for giving us this FALSE information!

Eduardo
On the Road - Red Lodge, Montana

************************************************

Here is the background on what unotaz told us in the past
which turned out to be INCORRECT:


That 'someone else' Whoopsy is referring to is me. And there
is a lesson to be learned here at Rennlist about this whole incident.
You can either take 'incomplete' information & run with it. Or you
can be more careful & measured when you post here about PTS.
And please double-check with reliable sources at PAG & PCNA
before posting definitive-sounding statements that could turn
out to be false or misleading. It's up to all of you to decide which
method gives you the most accurate information & serves best
the interest of our forum. The credibility of Rennlist as at risk.
This forum counts on you getting it right & not propagating
false rumors!



*****

Here is the history of this 'incident' for those interested in the
particulars. It all started on this thread back in late April:

****

Which leads up to Whoopsy's so-called update yesterday:

So here is the bottom line. Whoopsy's statement which
he posted on 4/23/2016 which said 'Sorry Eduardo...
True PTS are sent off to a 3rd party for all models be it
a Stuttgart production car or Leipzig production car'
was admittedly false.

And to prevent further confusion (which his original posting
has created ever since!), I feel the need to point out that
the statements made yesterday about 3rd party PTS at Leipzig,
if left unchallenged, will lead to more confusion on the topic,
not less! Let me explain:

I believe that one of Whoopsy's statement yesterday is also
incorrect & misleading. He states that "PTS is done by a 3rd
party in Leipzig. So the Panamera and Cayennes gets the 3rd
party treatment only. I was told 'all cars are painted by
3rd party' in Leipzig, which is correct in the person's point
of view as all cars from 'Leipzig' which is that factory."

This is not so. All Panameras have been welded together
& painted at a VW plant in Hanover since day one for that
model. So all Panameras are painted at Hanover, whether
it's standard color offerings or PTS. To say PTS is done by
a third party is misleading. Similarly, all Cayennes are welded,
painted & partially assembled in Bratislavia, Slovakia at another
VW Group plant. That has been the case since day one of that
model. So any Cayenne that is painted standard colors & those
rare PTS examples are done in Bratislava. The Macan is welded,
painted & assembled almost 100% at Leipzig*. I believe that
PTS Macans are done at Leipzig's state-of-the-art paint facility
& not by a 3rd party. And until they move all 718 Cayman
production to Stuttgart from the VW Group Karmann plant at
Osnabrück (expected in the future), the 981-era Caymans &
even some 981 Boxsters were welded, painted & assembled
at that facility. And that includes Cayman PTS. So to say that
this makes PTS a third party proposition Leipzig's Panamera,
Cayenne or Macan is either false or misleading. PAG doesn't
consider the Hanover, Bratislava & Osnabrück facilities as
'third party' vendors or sub-contractors, as was implied in
Whoopsy's statement.

I contacted Porsche officials after Whoopsy made his grandiose
statements on April 23rd on this forum. They refused to engage
simply because the claim he made of third party PTS was deemed
so wrong it didn't merit a response. Yet here at Rennlist, because
Whoopsy owns a 918 & attends all sorts of 918 events sponsored
by PAG, many assumed he must be 'totally in the know'. Well, that
was not the case this time around. Instead, we all got 'schooled',
or at least taken on a dubious ride, not just 'Mr. PTS'.

You, the reader, must decide what to believe you read on Rennlist
about PTS & consider carefully the sources where that information
is coming from. Also if the person relaying the 'information' has
the experience necessary to understand the larger picture behind
statements bandied about at a PAG event. So caveat emptor.

Saludos,
Eduardo
Scottsdale

*Petrol engines are all assembled in Stuttgart. Hybrid/diesel engines
may be put together elsewhere.

https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...1r-pts-12.html

GT3RS-Fan1

Attention to detail is outstanding. PTS knowledge is impressive. I salute Mr. Eduardo.

Atención al detalle es excepcional. Conocimiento PTS es impresionante. Un saludo Sr. Eduardo

Drive safe,
GT3RS-Fan1

CAlexio

Did you really just quote an entire Eduardo post? As amazing as they are, his quotes are often themselves quotes of quotes... it should be illegal to quote Eduardo... his posts are one unto themselves.. just absorb what your brain can handle and move on.. you just crashed my phone!

now on a serious note....

I'll stick up for Unotaz here, only to say that even Porsche employees sometimes give incorrect info. For example, I was at an CXX configuration appointment and was confidently told by the nice (anonymous) employee that stitching of any color except for the standard ones offered for a specific car we were looking at, had to go to an entirely different saddlery contractor as Porsche only stocked their sewing machines for a certain product run with certain specific thread spools. So if for example a certain model had only platinum and red stitching, then asking for acid green meant Porsche farming that entire seat out, the sewing machine spook couldn't be changed. This explanation was used when I asked how the CXX charge for stitching color change was a seemingly extraordinary $8500 approx. really, this is what the employee said... "impossible to change thread spool color on a sewing machine"... straight-faced. cute no?

ANYWAY, my point here is that if even Porsche employees who are configuring a car at an experience center.. are still making inaccurate and frankly wacky claims like this, then we can afford to be EXTRA charitable with each other no?
No need to rake over Unotaz like this.. it's all fun and games first world problems anyway. It's not like he's like "someone" who CONFIRMED the GT3 appearing in Paris last year (as well as continuing to this day with other consistently trollish behavior.) UGH... now THAT should have been an impeachable, nay... BANNABLE offense I've recently considered hacking into his account and posting a bunch of naked bobbleheads all over his posts just to help the process along

(Ok, I promise to stay serious.) MY POINT IS, that mistakes come even from the top, (let's not forget flappy paddles and gradndmas and all that jazz).. so let's just be nice to each other.

EDIT: Im now chuckling to myself at the idea that a certain sewing machine can't change color spools or carry multiple colors and that a whole seat needs to go to a different factory to change stitching color... haha! The really sad part is that I abdicated all logic and believed this person like the gullible fanboy that I am, and had to get WHACKED back into reality by our resident guru. Thanks Eduardo.. go easy on us mere mortals (customers AND employees).

Back on US soil, going for a drive this morning.
(I'm going to start giving my approximate location to see if I can feel a little more like Eduardo)

Nizer

Cracking down on flippers? One can hope...

http://jalopnik.com/someone-is-alrea...-rs-1796078673

GT3RS-Fan1

First of all, I hope it is "legal" to quote you.

Second, I am sorry if I caused to crash your phone. Easy remedy there are phones with bigger memories out there and they are not that expensive.

third, let us practice what we preach.

Fourth, Happy Father's Day to everyone here. Peace out.

Drive safe,
GT3RS-Fan1

Spyerx

This article in the LA Times about the WAAA WAAAA Ferrai guy in SoCal that can't get the new one... no tears here. The interesting part is the part where he found a guy to sell him a car where ferrari required owners to wait 18mo, well he shows up at pebble beach and ferrari is like "WTF" and pissed. I'm sure they will not never give him the cool **** out of spite and principal. The funny part is that by NOT giving him the stuff he wants he is even generating more buzz for the brand, and that makes it even more in demand by those who will play the game.

http://www.latimes.com/business/auto...htmlstory.html



BUSINESS AUTOS
He owns a dozen Ferraris and has loads of cash. Why can't he buy the elusive $2.2-million LaFerrari Aperta?

Watch and jewelry kingpin David Lee shows off a few of his prized Ferraris -- supercars that he's had to fight the company to buy. (Wally Skalij / Los Angeles Times)
By Charles Fleming
David Lee wanted the new Ferrari. He wanted it bad.

The multimillionaire watch and jewelry entrepreneur had his heart set on a LaFerrari Aperta, the open-top version of the ferocious Italian V12 super car. It would cost $2.2 million, and only 200 would be built.

Lee reckoned he had a good shot at getting one. After all, he already owned a garage full of Ferraris, many bought directly from the factory, part of a $50-million car collection he had spent years assembling.

He had a solid relationship with a powerful local Ferrari dealer. He had visited the Ferrari factory and attended the Ferrari driving school in Italy. He had purchased and restored vintage Ferraris and shown them at Pebble Beach and other exclusive concourse events.

He also recently had ordered four new Ferraris, hoping to improve his chances of getting on the exclusive and secret list of car collectors allowed to purchase one of the limited-run LaFerrari Aperta convertibles.

But Ferrari turned him down.

Undaunted, the collector persevered. His campaign to become a preferred Ferrari customer draws back the curtain on the mysterious world of ultra-elite luxury sports cars — where money alone isn’t enough.

I didn't want to play the game. But there's no other way to get into the queue.
— David Lee
The LaFerrari Aperta
The LaFerrari Aperta (Ferrari)
Arguably the world’s most recognizable exotic carmaker, Ferrari has mastered the art of exclusivity.

It doesn’t make an SUV, like Lamborghini or Bentley, or sell an entry-level sports car, like Aston Martin or Maserati. Though it has licensed its logo for use on T-shirts, key fobs and other inexpensive items, the company has held the line on its elite automobiles.

Not all Ferraris cost a fortune, but even the regular, non-limited models aren’t cheap. The lowest-priced vehicle in the current lineup is the California T, at about $210,000.

By occasionally offering a high-priced, limited run of special sports cars, affordable to the 1% but offered only to a select few, the company adds catnip to its cache — rewarding its most ardent consumers while beckoning new buyers to more quotidian cars offered at lower prices and in higher volume.

It’s a successful supply-and-demand formula. Last year, the company shipped only 8,014 cars worldwide, but reported net revenue of $3.4 billion from sales of automobiles, automobile components and other sources. In other words, Ferrari can afford to be choosy about who gets its best cars.

Even when it sells a limited-run vehicle to one of the hand-picked few, the company still exerts pressure: Those lucky 400 allowed to buy a new LaFerrari hardtop — among them Gordon Ramsay, rocker Sammy Hagar and race car driver Felipe Massa — were asked to promise not to sell their cars for at least 18 months, to ensure that only the most passionate collectors were getting them.

“If you are not a current or previous Ferrari owner, you have no chance at all,” said collector David Christian, who for decades has raced and owned elite Italian cars. “I don’t care how much money you have.”

Timepiece and jewelry entrepreneur David Lee is seen at his store in Walnut.
Timepiece and jewelry entrepreneur David Lee is seen at his store in Walnut. (Wally Skalij / Los Angeles Times)
Lee doesn’t know exactly why he was denied a spot for an Aperta, and Ferrari declined to comment, except to say Lee was a valued client.

But some longtime observers of the elite sports car milieu said Lee’s look-at-me lifestyle, though it promotes the brand, embarrasses the company.

“The factory doesn’t like the publicity he creates,” one source close to Ferrari said. “They hate all the noise, and he loves all the noise.”

Collector and Petersen Automotive Museum board member Bruce Meyer sympathizes with the storied Italian company’s effort to control its own destiny.

“They’ve tried to keep their cars in the right hands, and they’ve done a good job of maintaining a brand of exclusivity,” said Meyer, who keeps several highly valuable Ferraris in his Beverly Hills stable.

Several observers who are close to the brand said Lee’s relentless campaign is working against him.

For starters, there’s his Instagram handle — @ferraricollector_davidlee — from which he posts almost daily doses of his cars, watches, wine and travel to more than 715,000 followers. In one recent post, he referred to fellow car aficionado Jay Leno as “my bro 24/7.” In another, Lee is pictured in his bright yellow Ferrari F12 TdF DSKL in front of an In-N-Out. “When I went up to the order taker,” he captioned the shot, “I told her that I wanted a strawberry shake, animal fries, and a Double Double DSKL style.”


He also has made his Ferraris the center of a monthly “Cars and Chronos” event at his Walnut store, which routinely draws hundreds of exotic cars.

Lee has turned away suggestions from advisors that he tone down his social media.

“My love of the brand and the enjoyment I get from sharing my special collection with the public is nothing but a good thing for the future of the brand,” he said. “If people at Ferrari think that is self-promoting, I can’t help that.”

Energetic, guileless and boyishly proud of his collection, Lee was bubbling with excitement as he escorted a visitor around the underground garage that houses his prized automobiles.

The USC graduate, married and the father of two, happily named investment figures that his fellow collectors won’t even discuss.

At one end of the garage was a rare 1964 250 Lusso Competizione, one of only four known to exist, that he valued at $5 million. At another was the Ferrari F1 race car driven by Michael Schumacher, which Lee said was worth $3 million. In a single line were his five Ferrari super cars, in matching red, which together he valued at more than $15 million. All of them are worth more than what he paid — typical of most Ferrari investments.

Five cars from David Lee's special Ferrari "super car" collection are together valued at more than $15 million.
Five cars from David Lee's special Ferrari "super car" collection are together valued at more than $15 million. (Wally Skalij / Los Angeles Times)
Among Lee's Ferraris are five matching red models.
Among Lee's Ferraris are five matching red models. (Wally Skalij / Los Angeles Times)
It was his late father, Hing Wa Lee, who founded the family jewelry business, starting as a humble jade cutter in Hong Kong and immigrating to the U.S. in the 1970s.

But it was David Lee who made it an empire, creating the Hing Wa Lee Jewelers watch and jewelry retail superstores, where wealthy Taiwanese and mainland Chinese clients stroll among glittering displays for Rolex, Cartier, Piaget, Breitling and Tag Heuer. Forbes recently valued the family’s jewelry and real estate businesses at $300 million.

Although Lee also owns a vintage Porsche Speedster, twin Rolls-Royce touring cars and million-dollar Pagani Huayra, Ferraris are his favorite, and his campaign to be a Ferrari man started early.

“I decided to be the guy who drives a Ferrari, seven days a week,” Lee, 50, said.

I decided to be the guy who drives a Ferrari, seven days a week.
— David Lee

Lee's 1964 250 Lusso Ferrari, pictured in 2015. (Allen J. Schaben / Los Angeles Times)

Lee keeps his late father's 2005 Rolls-Royce Phantom in his exotic car collection, pictured in 2015. (Allen J. Schaben / Los Angeles Times)

Lee's underground vehicle vault includes vintage motorcycles and cars, including this rare black 1968 275 GTB 6C, pictured in 2015. (Allen J. Schaben / Los Angeles Times)
When he was new to the brand, Lee was surprised to learn money alone wasn’t enough to buy the Ferraris he was lusting after.

Told that he needed a closer relationship with the company, he said, he became friendly with Beverly Hills luxury car dealer Giacomo Mattioli, an Italian-born former Ferrari employee and ex-husband of a granddaughter of company founder Enzo Ferrari.

Lee began taking instruction on how to get into the club — an amorphous, loosely defined and ever-changing list of the company’s preferred customers. Under direction from Mattioli, who declined to comment, he began investing.

He bought a 1965 275 GTS, and later a 2003 Enzo. He bought a new 458 Speciale and a new 488 Spyder. Some of the cars didn’t really appeal to him.

“To buy a limited-edition car, you have to buy a few other cars that you don’t want,” he said. “I didn’t want to play the game. But there’s no other way to get into the queue.”

He spent $25,000 to join Ferrari’s driving club. He spent $12,000 for two days in the Ferrari driving school, he said, and invested heavily in the company’s pro racing program.

He took his cars to Pebble Beach, to the annual Concorso Italiano and brought a sampling of his super car set to this month’s San Marino Motor Classic.

To buy a limited-edition car, you have to buy a few other cars that you don't want.
— David Lee, on getting on the list
Lee even wrangled a limited-run LaFerrari after the company didn’t sell him one directly.

Left off the list for the $1.4-million hardtop, Lee commissioned a car contact to find him a used one — and to try to find a way around Ferrari’s 18-month sales prohibition.

One owner was in line for one of the first LaFerraris in North America but was about to go through a divorce. Not wanting the yet-to-be-delivered vehicle to be part of the settlement, Lee said, the owner agreed to transfer possession to Lee but delay the paperwork so that, technically, they could both abide by Ferrari’s rule.

Lee confessed that he paid “much, much more” than $1.4-million, but insisted that was less than the car is currently worth.

“The market value is $4 million now,” he said. “My investment is sound.” (Six months later, he estimated the car’s value at more than $5 million.)

But he incurred the company’s wrath, when Ferrari reps spotted him driving it at a Pebble Beach event. They made him agree not sell it for at least 18 months.

Lee was undaunted by the scolding. And, maybe, he’s finally starting to wear the company down.

He received the first 488 convertible delivered to North America and was first in line to place orders for limited runs of a specially designed line of F12 sports cars, of which only 500 were to be made. He also was able to place an early order for the new 812 Superfast, the most powerful Ferrari offered to the public.

But when the first LaFerrari Apertas were delivered this spring, Lee didn’t get one.

Shamed? Silenced? Not at all.

“I will keep sharing my experiences as an owner with the public and drive them as much as I can,” he said. “I don’t see how that could be worse than collectors who hide their collections in a garage and never drive them. That’s the real shame.”