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However, car forums are over represented by people with older models, the more cost effective ones, the ones who want to live in past models. Less participation on car forums as the price tags of the cars go up and the owner of the newer models. They are under represented or don't particularly care to banter with people of how great or not so great their car is.
Sometimes, like minded people on car forums convince themselves that their opinion is the popular one. It all depends on how many people one knows outside of car forums who aren't represented and how they think about things.
458 has a cult following on car forums... not in real life (and I have a speciale).
Spot on.
Especially the last part. The same affliction affects the Scud.
Especially the last part. The same affliction affects the Scud.
Largely agree - you see it played out on all car forums irrespective of the price range e.g.
WRX - WRX STI
M2 - M3
Italia - Speciale
GT3 - GT3 RS
570S - 720S
99x base - 99xGTS
GT4 - GT3
The argument nearly always goes like this, why do you need a car that fast for the street, and besides with a tune or xyz mods the lower priced model is equal to or better than the higher priced variant. That argument is nearly always posted by the person with the lower priced variant. I'm sure we'll see the same with the 600lt Vs 765lt. You see the same with terms like visceral or drivers car etc.
However, car forums are over represented by people with older models, the more cost effective ones, the ones who want to live in past models. Less participation on car forums as the price tags of the cars go up and the owner of the newer models. They are under represented or don't particularly care to banter with people of how great or not so great their car is.
Sometimes, like minded people on car forums convince themselves that their opinion is the popular one. It all depends on how many people one knows outside of car forums who aren't represented and how they think about things.
458 has a cult following on car forums... not in real life (and I have a speciale).
Agree there are lots of people on car forums with older models, part of that is because older people often have more free time on their hands to surf the net! BTW, I don't think I'm there yet as I'm in my early forties..
But there is also much discussion about previous cars because most of the recent cars simply blend together, particularly the turbo variants, so parting with large sums of cash every couple years for new cars with less soul becomes less appealing.
Regarding the 458 following. I think that does apply to real life (not just car forums) because 458 prices are holding much better than 488 prices which are dropping more rapidly. Because there will always be another turbo model with the boost turned up a bit further, while the 458 represents peak mid-engine NA Ferrari.
I don't think I agree. Look at people plowing $$$ into restomods, Singer, BaT emergence, NA 458s coming close to price parity with the newer turbo 488 (458 has a cult following), people choosing to buy 991.1 over 991.2 in *some* instances, etc etc. Sure, is price a reason I don't have an F12 TDF yes absolutely. But I don't think that price is the main reason why we have what we have, why we drive what we drive, because that defeats the purpose of being on Rennlist/a car enthusiast and we'd all drive a Prius or Tesla. We pick the car we own for a multitude of other reasons, getting the juices flowing, the look, something intangible, a feeling, the sound, the uniqueness, heritage, and so on
Being forced to comply with different laws/regulations worldwide is such a huge factor that I don't think the enthusiasts or automakers necessarily like (like the industry move to go turbo, GPF, etc)
Sure newer stuff is faster undoubtedly, but that does not make it necessarily more engaging/better to me, YMMV
However, car forums are over represented by people with older models, the more cost effective ones, the ones who want to live in past models. Less participation on car forums as the price tags of the cars go up and the owner of the newer models. They are under represented or don't particularly care to banter with people of how great or not so great their car is.
Sometimes, like minded people on car forums convince themselves that their opinion is the popular one. It all depends on how many people one knows outside of car forums who aren't represented and how they think about things.
458 has a cult following on car forums... not in real life (and I have a speciale).
So is this 40 words or more for saying that only those that have the $$$ for every new model pumped out as the latest and greatest are the real car enthusiasts and the proletariat only convince themselves their cars are great or that they love them? Sounds like your next words will be "pass the Grey Poupon".
Newer model owners are under represented? How so? Where do we look to find this? How did you figure this? Please enlighten us.
This forum is chock full of new model owners. The sub forums cater to each particular model so not clear where you are coming from?
Most car enthusiasts buy cars because they love them. They may not continue to love them but that's usually how it starts out. Some keep them because they love them.
I kept my 427 Shelby Continuation Shelby for 17 years because I loved it. My kids loved (wife not so much but that's another story). Not many cars are more emotive than this one. It was time for me to move on and the GT3RS grabbed me. I made the switch and glad I did. I was Cobra'd out.
Some emotive cars that many car enthusiasts would rather have than a McLaren (count me in this category) or as much I think might include:
Shelby Cobra (289 or 427)
GT40/Ford GT
Boss 429
'67 Shelby GT500
1969/70 Boss 302
Hemi Cuda
Super Bird
"67 427 Corvette
Split window Corvette
And while I can't speak to the 458 cult following I can confidently say the above cars do have a cult following.
Last I looked the "live in the past" models provide their own emotion to the owner just like the most expensive, latest and greatest, fastest track weapon provides its own emotive thrill to its owner.
Maybe its you that convinced yourself that your view is the popular or correct one when its not while elitist and flawed all in one fell swoop. Impressive.
^^^. I think you're misreading what he's saying - which is, high end new car owners are under represented on many car forums even this one. Thus you rarely get opinions on the latest and greatest offerings from Ferrari and Mclaren based on extensive ownership experience (and indeed others). Whether we like it or not price limits choice and therefore the number of participants. Having said that there are quite a few on here that have a Ferrari and one or more Porsches or in my case a 720S and one or more Porsches (or vice versa).
Also, lets face it the historic car world is full of people telling those of us that own "modern cars" not only that we don't understand them but don't understand concepts such as driver engagement. Failing to recognise many of us have owned said or similar cars in the past and are well able to judge the good from the bad and the indifferent.
There are many ways to get unique driving experiences but those that suggest newer vehicles or faster vehicles are less engaging are not correct they simply have an opinion often not based on extensive driving of vehicles like 720S or Pista.
On the 458 - the Italia wasn't anything special other than perhaps being the first non brittle mainstream Ferrari that was put together like a modern car and could be worked on and serviced in a sensible fashion - the Speciale is much better because it is more dialled in and thus more exhilarating. The 488GTB was produced in decent numbers - I thought about one before buying my 720S but really didn't like the back end, which on track is way to soft - then again it is a genuine road car. The 720S is much more dialled in than the GTB and the Mclaren suspension set up is a masterclass in modern design and execution. It is that good. Nontheless its still a road car.
So, where does something like an RS fit in to this picture - from my perspective, and I have said it here many times, its a tool for me to follow the motorsport that I participate it - its an excellent tool and entirely fit for purpose. Its absolute point of excellence is its high speed stability and compliance - when I mean stability and compliance - it absolutely shines well beyond 200kmh on rough or poorish quality pavement - this is a function of the excellent OEM aero and suspension set up. A 488GTB or 720S can not match the RS in this type of situation, however that wasn't their design brief and the reality is few cars have this competence.
The RS is engaging and fun at any speed but at 240kmh to 270kmh on poor roads it truly shines in a way that only a very small numbers of cars can match, and in the Porsche stable only the GT2 RS. Thus cars like the Pista, 600LT, GT2 RS and GT3 RS offer a level of engagement across a broad spectrum of conditions and speeds that is demonstrable in so many ways from ripping up ring lap times to picking up the groceries (if you so choose).
Cars like the GT3 or 570S simply don't have the dynamic range of the cars listed in the last paragraph and ipso facto can't and don't have the same level of engagement. They are market driven price point cars.
Each “genre” of car whether classic or modern high performance offers or claims to offer its owner what that owner was looking for and if it fails in doing so it will be shifted on to a new owner in short order in most cases.
I don’t understand how high end car owners are under represented in car forums such as this one when Porsche is a high end car and many here own other high end cars in addition to their Porsche.
Each “genre” of car whether classic or modern high performance offers or claims to offer its owner what that owner was looking for and if it fails in doing so it will be shifted on to a new owner in short order in most cases.
I don’t understand how high end car owners are under represented in car forums such as this one when Porsche is a high end car and many here own other high end cars in addition to their Porsche.
Its probably somewhat market dependant - so for example where I live a commuter car will cost $30K, M2 100k, 992 C2S 300K, GT3 350k, GT3RS 450k, 488GTB 650k, 720S ~ 725k so a 488GTB or 720S is a big leap up from something like a GT3. I guess I consider high-end = Ferrari/Mclaren. To put it another way Porsche are at the top end of the bell curve whereas Ferrari/Mclaren/Pagani/Bugati are statistical outliers and therefore high-end. There are other reasons to buy them, design, uniqueness, engineering, bespoke components - like buying artwork.
Another analogy might relate to houses - Porsche would build a wonderful house, a civil engineering triumph but..................would unlikely achieve the status of architectural masterpiece. Yes I know the 911 shape...........true its a very storied tale but more akin to refinements made to bauhaus classics rather than new inspiration and creativity in a modern sense.
One of the things I particularly like about my 720S is the design, it simply flows and every time you sit in it it feels unique, distinctive - whereas with my RS, whilst standing still and from an interior perspective it could be any 991.2 series 911 with alcantara, sports chrono and carbon fibre trim.
I don't think theres anything controversial in the above - other than variation in pricing relative to specific markets.
Each “genre” of car whether classic or modern high performance offers or claims to offer its owner what that owner was looking for and if it fails in doing so it will be shifted on to a new owner in short order in most cases.
I don’t understand how high end car owners are under represented in car forums such as this one when Porsche is a high end car and many here own other high end cars in addition to their Porsche.
Perhaps its in the eye of the beholder - to me Exhibit (a) looks like a parts bin special - bits from 911s with other bits forced in around them, whereas (b) and (c) look like thought through resolved and sophisticated products (as they should be)
Ok. Then that’s the disconnect. I see. Problem is many and I think most actually consider Porsche a “high” end car especially GT variants ( surprised to find some don’t actually). No question it is imho. Some high end Porsches:
05-18-2020, 10:40 PM
- which is, high end new car owners are under represented on many car forums even this one. Thus you rarely get opinions on the latest and greatest offerings from Ferrari and Mclaren based on extensive ownership experience (and indeed others). Whether we like it or not price limits choice and therefore the number of participants. Having said that there are quite a few on here that have a Ferrari and one or more Porsches or in my case a 720S and one or more Porsches (or vice versa).
