Impressions of GT3 (Manifold)
03-28-2015, 01:47 PM
#167
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I was at my dealer this morning, where someone was taking delivery of his $1M 918 Weissach. As a reflection of how good the GT3 is, I got in the GT3 to drive home and didn't have even the slightest feeling that I wished I had a 918 instead. In fact, to my eye, the GT3, with its classic 911 shape and engine in the right place, looks better to me. And since the GT3 is bordering on being 'too much' car for the road, I found myself wondering how frustrating it might be to drive a 918 on the road, given how much faster it is.
Speaking of which, now that I'm well past break in, I've had a chance to use as many revs as I want on the road. The car certainly doesn't feel underpowered in the upper third of the rev range, but I have a hard time staying there for very long, given the rate at which the car accrues speed. And with the searing, sizzly, screaming sound of the engine inside the cabin, I wonder how it might sound outside the car!
But nevertheless, the car is awesome on both road and track, and like others, I continue to enjoy the car more as I drive it more. Not an inexpensive car (unless you compare it with exotics), but worth every penny, imo.
Speaking of which, now that I'm well past break in, I've had a chance to use as many revs as I want on the road. The car certainly doesn't feel underpowered in the upper third of the rev range, but I have a hard time staying there for very long, given the rate at which the car accrues speed. And with the searing, sizzly, screaming sound of the engine inside the cabin, I wonder how it might sound outside the car!
But nevertheless, the car is awesome on both road and track, and like others, I continue to enjoy the car more as I drive it more. Not an inexpensive car (unless you compare it with exotics), but worth every penny, imo.
04-05-2015, 01:11 PM
#168
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Another quick addition to this little journal of my GT3 experience.
I just drove the car at my home track, Summit Point. I was tired from lack of sleep and a busy schedule, so I was taking it somewhat easy and not 'all there', but here are some observations after a total of about 750 track miles (combination of wife and me driving the car):
- With -2.0 cambers, the tire wear is fairly even across the width, and there's still decent tread depth remaining. I don't know how far we can go past the wear bars with the SC2, but assuming the tires are roughly 60% done at this point, it does seem like the grip is starting to come down, though not to an unacceptable level. And I did briefly drive my student's 997.1 GT3, which had a relatively fresh set of SC2 on it, and I felt like the 991 GT3 still has more grip, which may reflect how much more capable the car is overall.
- Plenty of PFC 11 brake pad still remaining F and R, no cracking of the rear rotors, and almost no cracking of the front rotors. I'm anticipating that I'll continue using OEM rotors in this car.
- Not loving the brake pedal feel on track, not hard enough. Brake pedal in my 997.1 C2S has felt better. I didn't bleed the brakes before this event, and I plan to do a flush with SRF before the next event.
- Summit Point is pretty bumpy in some places, including some of the brake zones, and I didn't love the way the PASM coped with that (tried both damper settings). Braking early and less hard remedied that, but at the expense of making me slower. But I'm also still getting used to the pace of this car.
- I mostly used manual mode, just playing around with it at this point rather than trying to optimize the shifting, but switching to auto mode revealed that I'm typically leaving plenty of revs on the table. Redline of 9K will take some getting used to, still a little difficult to mentally accept that the engine can rev that high.
- As an indicator of the capability of the car, I was running at roughly the same pace as a 997.2 GT3 with R6 tires while driving at maybe 8/10ths of my ability, and he's an excellent driver who I'm sure is better than me. My tire pressures were also well above 30 at that point. So I'm guessing that the 991 GT3 might be around 3+ sec faster on equal tires at a track where the 991 GT3 might be capable of a 1:18 in the hands of a pro.
- On a wet track with the SC2, the car is manageable, but I confirmed via power oversteer that the car does have a stability control light.
- LWB with 3-pt belts doesn't cut it on track. Bracing with the left leg hurts my knee, and ~150 mph without harnesses and head/neck restraint makes me uncomfortable on safety. Need to fix that soon, and trying to decide whether to use the LWB vs get something like the Sparco Ergo.
- We had the Cayman R at the track also. I took it out at a modest pace, and expected it to feel like crap after driving the GT3, but I actually had a lot of fun with it. Mid-engine feel is very different from the GT3, with a noticeable benefit for corner entry and mid-corner adjustment, and (real) manual shifting was fun too. The idea of getting a GT4 now appeals to me even more than before, seems like it should be an awesome track car.
I just drove the car at my home track, Summit Point. I was tired from lack of sleep and a busy schedule, so I was taking it somewhat easy and not 'all there', but here are some observations after a total of about 750 track miles (combination of wife and me driving the car):
- With -2.0 cambers, the tire wear is fairly even across the width, and there's still decent tread depth remaining. I don't know how far we can go past the wear bars with the SC2, but assuming the tires are roughly 60% done at this point, it does seem like the grip is starting to come down, though not to an unacceptable level. And I did briefly drive my student's 997.1 GT3, which had a relatively fresh set of SC2 on it, and I felt like the 991 GT3 still has more grip, which may reflect how much more capable the car is overall.
- Plenty of PFC 11 brake pad still remaining F and R, no cracking of the rear rotors, and almost no cracking of the front rotors. I'm anticipating that I'll continue using OEM rotors in this car.
- Not loving the brake pedal feel on track, not hard enough. Brake pedal in my 997.1 C2S has felt better. I didn't bleed the brakes before this event, and I plan to do a flush with SRF before the next event.
- Summit Point is pretty bumpy in some places, including some of the brake zones, and I didn't love the way the PASM coped with that (tried both damper settings). Braking early and less hard remedied that, but at the expense of making me slower. But I'm also still getting used to the pace of this car.
- I mostly used manual mode, just playing around with it at this point rather than trying to optimize the shifting, but switching to auto mode revealed that I'm typically leaving plenty of revs on the table. Redline of 9K will take some getting used to, still a little difficult to mentally accept that the engine can rev that high.
- As an indicator of the capability of the car, I was running at roughly the same pace as a 997.2 GT3 with R6 tires while driving at maybe 8/10ths of my ability, and he's an excellent driver who I'm sure is better than me. My tire pressures were also well above 30 at that point. So I'm guessing that the 991 GT3 might be around 3+ sec faster on equal tires at a track where the 991 GT3 might be capable of a 1:18 in the hands of a pro.
- On a wet track with the SC2, the car is manageable, but I confirmed via power oversteer that the car does have a stability control light.
- LWB with 3-pt belts doesn't cut it on track. Bracing with the left leg hurts my knee, and ~150 mph without harnesses and head/neck restraint makes me uncomfortable on safety. Need to fix that soon, and trying to decide whether to use the LWB vs get something like the Sparco Ergo.
- We had the Cayman R at the track also. I took it out at a modest pace, and expected it to feel like crap after driving the GT3, but I actually had a lot of fun with it. Mid-engine feel is very different from the GT3, with a noticeable benefit for corner entry and mid-corner adjustment, and (real) manual shifting was fun too. The idea of getting a GT4 now appeals to me even more than before, seems like it should be an awesome track car.
Last edited by Manifold; 04-05-2015 at 03:48 PM.
04-05-2015, 08:29 PM
#169
Regarding the wiggle some have mentioned, could the problem be a little too much stock rear brake bias instead of not enough rear downforce when threshold braking from 125+ mph? Could a change to a slightly more aggressive front pad while retaining the stock rears help settle the rear down ? Be careful when testing this theory out, bed your new pads in properly and have plenty of runoff and space around you (meaning no cars or walls). I personally would try this at 80 mph before going any faster, then if it works well creep up at 10 mph increments so there are no surprises. Again, have plenty of space around you and plenty of extra runoff to make corrections if needed!
Btw, I have not been on the track with my "3" yet so I have not experienced the wiggle that some have mentioned.
Has anyone tracking their 991 GT3 tried this yet?
Btw, I have not been on the track with my "3" yet so I have not experienced the wiggle that some have mentioned.
Has anyone tracking their 991 GT3 tried this yet?
04-05-2015, 09:46 PM
#170
- As an indicator of the capability of the car, I was running at roughly the same pace as a 997.2 GT3 with R6 tires while driving at maybe 8/10ths of my ability, and he's an excellent driver who I'm sure is better than me. My tire pressures were also well above 30 at that point. So I'm guessing that the 991 GT3 might be around 3+ sec faster on equal tires at a track where the 991 GT3 might be capable of a 1:18 in the hands of a pro.
. Congrats on the move the the 3 and nice to hear the R is back on the track.
04-05-2015, 10:54 PM
#171
Rennlist Member
Nice write up & observations so far. Have only had my GT3 since last Monday & have noticed the truck like idle. It's an identical sound to my 996tt which has a LWFW along with a HD clutch. Sounds like marbles until the revs hit about 1200 RPM.
04-05-2015, 11:31 PM
#172
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Looking forward to comparing notes with you on the 3.
Lol on the clues
04-06-2015, 01:51 AM
#173
I now have two track days on my car: last Monday at Chuckwalla, last Friday at Thermal Club. My points of reference are previous 991S (with PDCC) and 997.2 GTS, both completely stock.
Holy cow, this thing is fast! The acceleration and cornering are an order of magnitude above what I'm accustomed to. I'm running Dunlops, but the fronts are about toast and I'll replace all four with PSC2s. (Rears have some life left, but fronts are to the wear bars.) I too noticed a bit of a brake wiggle, at roughly 30/32 (hot) when hauling it down from about 137 on Thermal's back straight. I hadn't noticed it at Chuckwalla, but that track isn't as fast as Thermal.
I've had a performance alignment done at GMG. I'm now at -2.0F/-1.8R camber vs. factory 1.7F/1.5R, since I use the car as a DD in addition to track/AX events. My factory rear toe setting was 2.6/2.0, which might explain the issues I had at AX before the alignment. Rear toe is now 2.8/2.9 which really seems to make the car feel more balanced.
My next event is the California Festival of Speed next weekend. By then I'll have the Sport Cup 2's on, and I'll get to see how those differ from the Dunlops. The fun continues.
DMoore
'15 GT3
'13 Panamera GTS
Holy cow, this thing is fast! The acceleration and cornering are an order of magnitude above what I'm accustomed to. I'm running Dunlops, but the fronts are about toast and I'll replace all four with PSC2s. (Rears have some life left, but fronts are to the wear bars.) I too noticed a bit of a brake wiggle, at roughly 30/32 (hot) when hauling it down from about 137 on Thermal's back straight. I hadn't noticed it at Chuckwalla, but that track isn't as fast as Thermal.
I've had a performance alignment done at GMG. I'm now at -2.0F/-1.8R camber vs. factory 1.7F/1.5R, since I use the car as a DD in addition to track/AX events. My factory rear toe setting was 2.6/2.0, which might explain the issues I had at AX before the alignment. Rear toe is now 2.8/2.9 which really seems to make the car feel more balanced.
My next event is the California Festival of Speed next weekend. By then I'll have the Sport Cup 2's on, and I'll get to see how those differ from the Dunlops. The fun continues.
DMoore
'15 GT3
'13 Panamera GTS
04-06-2015, 02:09 AM
#174
Nordschleife Master
That should help. I noticed the pedal starting to get softer with the OEM fluid, so I switched to RBF600 and the pedal is nice and solid again.
04-09-2015, 10:35 AM
#175
Don't know if I'll be of much help, you will have more seat time then I will have on the track. I'm still trying to figure out if I can make at least 2 events this year. Finally felt like I was getting the feel for the Cayman at the end of last year. It is very different then driving a 911. So far on the street the 991 shows no limits, just says feed me more.
04-26-2015, 08:11 PM
#176
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Just got back from two excellent days at my home track, Summit Point. Pushed the car much harder than I did last time. Bottom line is that this thing rocks on track, and the harder you push, the better it is. If you have at least decent car control, you can take some liberties with the car and it won't bite - which inspires a lot of confidence and translates into serious speed. 
Flushed the brakes with SRF before this event, and the brake pedal was much better than last time at the track. Pedal travel isn't too much, and the pedal stayed reasonably firm the whole time. Modulation of brake pressure seems really key with this car - once I got comfortable with that, the brakes felt really good to me. The car still doesn't seem to like a lot of trailbraking (some is fine), but no big deal, just adapt: come off the brakes sooner, turn it in, get on the gas sooner and go. And in a bumpy high-speed braking zone, it's vital that the car be absolutely straight, even a small amount of steering input can upset the car; again, no big deal, just keep it straight. Still very little cracking of the OEM rotors, despite the holes, and I'm getting good life out of the PFC 11 pads.
I'm very impressed with the SC2 tires, I see them as integral part of the car. After about 1500 track miles, there's still a decent amount of tread left, and the grip is still pretty good. As tempting as semi-slicks or slicks might be, I don't feel any real need to get a grippier tire than the SC2 for this car. Around 30 psi hot F and R seems optimal and makes the car fairly balanced with everything stock except -2.0 cambers; and btw, these cambers are continuing to give me fairly even wear of the tires across the width, so I'm still not clear on why some people need so much more camber. I'm even toying with the idea of trying the factory -1.5 cambers, since increasing the camber appears to increase the caster, possibly making the caster too high and contributing to understeer in tighter corners. Also, be careful when tracking the car at pressures below ~25 psi, the tires tend to roll over, which can damage them, and that also makes the car twitchy. With my setup, the usable window seems to be about 25 to 35 psi, with a sweet spot from about 28 to 31 psi.
On a negative note, I still say the steering feels fairly dead as far as communicating what the front tires are doing, but the car still overall communicates what it's doing well enough to the driver, via other channels.
So, summing up my collective observations on the car so far:
- Fine and comfortable as a DD and for driving to/from the track. But not a particularly exciting car at 'normal' road speeds.
- Fun and engaging car at spirited road speeds (though other cars may be even more fun and engaging). There are even some nice nuances in the behavior, feel, and sound of the car which may be better appreciated from spirited road driving as compared to the track.
- Not an especially exciting car on the track when driven at or below intermediate pace. But then how many, if any, cars are truly exciting at that pace?
- BADASS car on track when pushed hard. Many have called my driving style 'smooth', though my hands tend to be somewhat busy, and the car responds very well to my driving style.
Really glad my wife told me to 'just buy the damn car'!
Flushed the brakes with SRF before this event, and the brake pedal was much better than last time at the track. Pedal travel isn't too much, and the pedal stayed reasonably firm the whole time. Modulation of brake pressure seems really key with this car - once I got comfortable with that, the brakes felt really good to me. The car still doesn't seem to like a lot of trailbraking (some is fine), but no big deal, just adapt: come off the brakes sooner, turn it in, get on the gas sooner and go. And in a bumpy high-speed braking zone, it's vital that the car be absolutely straight, even a small amount of steering input can upset the car; again, no big deal, just keep it straight. Still very little cracking of the OEM rotors, despite the holes, and I'm getting good life out of the PFC 11 pads.
I'm very impressed with the SC2 tires, I see them as integral part of the car. After about 1500 track miles, there's still a decent amount of tread left, and the grip is still pretty good. As tempting as semi-slicks or slicks might be, I don't feel any real need to get a grippier tire than the SC2 for this car. Around 30 psi hot F and R seems optimal and makes the car fairly balanced with everything stock except -2.0 cambers; and btw, these cambers are continuing to give me fairly even wear of the tires across the width, so I'm still not clear on why some people need so much more camber. I'm even toying with the idea of trying the factory -1.5 cambers, since increasing the camber appears to increase the caster, possibly making the caster too high and contributing to understeer in tighter corners. Also, be careful when tracking the car at pressures below ~25 psi, the tires tend to roll over, which can damage them, and that also makes the car twitchy. With my setup, the usable window seems to be about 25 to 35 psi, with a sweet spot from about 28 to 31 psi.
On a negative note, I still say the steering feels fairly dead as far as communicating what the front tires are doing, but the car still overall communicates what it's doing well enough to the driver, via other channels.
So, summing up my collective observations on the car so far:
- Fine and comfortable as a DD and for driving to/from the track. But not a particularly exciting car at 'normal' road speeds.
- Fun and engaging car at spirited road speeds (though other cars may be even more fun and engaging). There are even some nice nuances in the behavior, feel, and sound of the car which may be better appreciated from spirited road driving as compared to the track.
- Not an especially exciting car on the track when driven at or below intermediate pace. But then how many, if any, cars are truly exciting at that pace?
- BADASS car on track when pushed hard. Many have called my driving style 'smooth', though my hands tend to be somewhat busy, and the car responds very well to my driving style.
Really glad my wife told me to 'just buy the damn car'!
04-26-2015, 08:58 PM
#177
Rennlist Member
Good feedback, thanks!
Cant wait for my first day at the track...
Cant wait for my first day at the track...
04-26-2015, 10:02 PM
#178
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Just got back from two excellent days at my home track, Summit Point. Pushed the car much harder than I did last time. Bottom line is that this thing rocks on track, and the harder you push, the better it is. If you have at least decent car control, you can take some liberties with the car and it won't bite - which inspires a lot of confidence and translates into serious speed.
Flushed the brakes with SRF before this event, and the brake pedal was much better than last time at the track. Pedal travel isn't too much, and the pedal stayed reasonably firm the whole time. Modulation of brake pressure seems really key with this car - once I got comfortable with that, the brakes felt really good to me. The car still doesn't seem to like a lot of trailbraking (some is fine), but no big deal, just adapt: come off the brakes sooner, turn it in, get on the gas sooner and go. And in a bumpy high-speed braking zone, it's vital that the car be absolutely straight, even a small amount of steering input can upset the car; again, no big deal, just keep it straight. Still very little cracking of the OEM rotors, despite the holes, and I'm getting good life out of the PFC 11 pads.
I'm very impressed with the SC2 tires, I see them as integral part of the car. After about 1500 track miles, there's still a decent amount of tread left, and the grip is still pretty good. As tempting as semi-slicks or slicks might be, I don't feel any real need to get a grippier tire than the SC2 for this car. Around 30 psi hot F and R seems optimal and makes the car fairly balanced with everything stock except -2.0 cambers; and btw, these cambers are continuing to give me fairly even wear of the tires across the width, so I'm still not clear on why some people need so much more camber. I'm even toying with the idea of trying the factory -1.5 cambers, since increasing the camber appears to increase the caster, possibly making the caster too high and contributing to understeer in tighter corners. Also, be careful when tracking the car at pressures below ~25 psi, the tires tend to roll over, which can damage them, and that also makes the car twitchy. With my setup, the usable window seems to be about 25 to 35 psi, with a sweet spot from about 28 to 31 psi.
On a negative note, I still say the steering feels fairly dead as far as communicating what the front tires are doing, but the car still overall communicates what it's doing well enough to the driver, via other channels.
So, summing up my collective observations on the car so far:
- Fine and comfortable as a DD and for driving to/from the track. But not a particularly exciting car at 'normal' road speeds.
- Fun and engaging car at spirited road speeds (though other cars may be even more fun and engaging). There are even some nice nuances in the behavior, feel, and sound of the car which may be better appreciated from spirited road driving as compared to the track.
- Not an especially exciting car on the track when driven at or below intermediate pace. But then how many, if any, cars are truly exciting at that pace?
- BADASS car on track when pushed hard. Many have called my driving style 'smooth', though my hands tend to be somewhat busy, and the car responds very well to my driving style.
Really glad my wife told me to 'just buy the damn car'!
Flushed the brakes with SRF before this event, and the brake pedal was much better than last time at the track. Pedal travel isn't too much, and the pedal stayed reasonably firm the whole time. Modulation of brake pressure seems really key with this car - once I got comfortable with that, the brakes felt really good to me. The car still doesn't seem to like a lot of trailbraking (some is fine), but no big deal, just adapt: come off the brakes sooner, turn it in, get on the gas sooner and go. And in a bumpy high-speed braking zone, it's vital that the car be absolutely straight, even a small amount of steering input can upset the car; again, no big deal, just keep it straight. Still very little cracking of the OEM rotors, despite the holes, and I'm getting good life out of the PFC 11 pads.
I'm very impressed with the SC2 tires, I see them as integral part of the car. After about 1500 track miles, there's still a decent amount of tread left, and the grip is still pretty good. As tempting as semi-slicks or slicks might be, I don't feel any real need to get a grippier tire than the SC2 for this car. Around 30 psi hot F and R seems optimal and makes the car fairly balanced with everything stock except -2.0 cambers; and btw, these cambers are continuing to give me fairly even wear of the tires across the width, so I'm still not clear on why some people need so much more camber. I'm even toying with the idea of trying the factory -1.5 cambers, since increasing the camber appears to increase the caster, possibly making the caster too high and contributing to understeer in tighter corners. Also, be careful when tracking the car at pressures below ~25 psi, the tires tend to roll over, which can damage them, and that also makes the car twitchy. With my setup, the usable window seems to be about 25 to 35 psi, with a sweet spot from about 28 to 31 psi.
On a negative note, I still say the steering feels fairly dead as far as communicating what the front tires are doing, but the car still overall communicates what it's doing well enough to the driver, via other channels.
So, summing up my collective observations on the car so far:
- Fine and comfortable as a DD and for driving to/from the track. But not a particularly exciting car at 'normal' road speeds.
- Fun and engaging car at spirited road speeds (though other cars may be even more fun and engaging). There are even some nice nuances in the behavior, feel, and sound of the car which may be better appreciated from spirited road driving as compared to the track.
- Not an especially exciting car on the track when driven at or below intermediate pace. But then how many, if any, cars are truly exciting at that pace?
- BADASS car on track when pushed hard. Many have called my driving style 'smooth', though my hands tend to be somewhat busy, and the car responds very well to my driving style.
Really glad my wife told me to 'just buy the damn car'!
So, are you saying you like this car?
04-26-2015, 10:39 PM
#180
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
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