Impressions of GT3 (Manifold)
01-25-2015, 05:20 PM
#91
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Very cold weather coming up for the next week, good weather today, so drove the car a lot today (still staying in the bottom half of the rev range). Close to 500 miles now.
Wife drove the car for the second time, in much better conditions than yesterday. Her comments:
- "Holy moly, this car is freakin fast!"
- "It's a beast!"
- Being able to shift between manual and auto modes is really nice (first time she's used paddles, and getting proficient with it quickly).
For me, many of the things that jumped out at me when I first started driving the car are starting to seem 'normal' now. I still haven't done back to back comparisons with other cars, but the GT3 does definitely feel a bit heavy, though still agile, precise, etc.
And while I love the car, am glad I bought it, and expect to keep it a long time, I'm feeling even more than before that I wouldn't buy this car as a road-only car. For me, it's just too capable, so that by the time the car's starting to really do something, the speed is just too high, at least for all the roads I drive on (some nice roads around here, but trees, guardrails, driveways, houses, etc. in runoff areas aren't to my liking). And perhaps this feeling is influenced by having done a fair amount of track driving, so that what feels somewhat mundane to me (despite being too fast for the road) may feel plenty thrilling for people with little or no track experience - what say you other track guys? These guys talk a lot about this point:
Wife drove the car for the second time, in much better conditions than yesterday. Her comments:
- "Holy moly, this car is freakin fast!"
- "It's a beast!"
- Being able to shift between manual and auto modes is really nice (first time she's used paddles, and getting proficient with it quickly).
For me, many of the things that jumped out at me when I first started driving the car are starting to seem 'normal' now. I still haven't done back to back comparisons with other cars, but the GT3 does definitely feel a bit heavy, though still agile, precise, etc.
And while I love the car, am glad I bought it, and expect to keep it a long time, I'm feeling even more than before that I wouldn't buy this car as a road-only car. For me, it's just too capable, so that by the time the car's starting to really do something, the speed is just too high, at least for all the roads I drive on (some nice roads around here, but trees, guardrails, driveways, houses, etc. in runoff areas aren't to my liking). And perhaps this feeling is influenced by having done a fair amount of track driving, so that what feels somewhat mundane to me (despite being too fast for the road) may feel plenty thrilling for people with little or no track experience - what say you other track guys? These guys talk a lot about this point:
01-31-2015, 06:23 PM
#92
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Over 600 miles on the GT3 now. Took it out for a long drive, then came back and took the Cayman R for a drive, so it was my first comparo with the GT3.
A few qualifers are that the Cayman is on RE11 summer street tires (inferior to the SC2 on the GT3), and the shocks may be worn after well over a hundred track days on the car. It has manual trans, and GT2 seats which aren't height-adjustable and higher than I'd like.
As usual, the GT3 was amazing and fun when I dialed it up a bit, but I just wasn't comfortable with that speed on the road, so I'd slow down and find myself somewhat bored and frustrated.
After switching to the Cayman, for the first couple of minutes I was a bit shocked at how much it felt like a jalopy compared to the GT3, as though it was at least a decade older. Much less accurate and intuitive steering, inferior damping and stability, inferior agility ... overall handling just not in the same league as the GT3. Felt lighter, but that was less of an advantage in the context of the overall inferior handling. The manual shifting also felt like a clunky and archaic process compared to GT3.
But as I drove the Cayman more, I found myself acclimating to anticipating the imperfections in its steering and handling, and adjusting for them with my inputs. And with the shifting, I found myself rising to the occasion and making the effort needed to effectively plan and execute the shifts. The car asked for more effort on my end, and making that effort made the car engaging - considerably more engaging than the GT3, at speeds more reasonable than the GT3.
So the bottom line for me (subjectively) is that the GT3 is a superior car by a considerable margin, but because of its inferiority the Cayman is the more enjoyable car on the road at reasonable speeds. Conversely, though I haven't tracked it yet, I'm anticipating that I'll be enjoying the GT3 more than the Cayman on the track, which is the main purpose I bought it for.
A few qualifers are that the Cayman is on RE11 summer street tires (inferior to the SC2 on the GT3), and the shocks may be worn after well over a hundred track days on the car. It has manual trans, and GT2 seats which aren't height-adjustable and higher than I'd like.
As usual, the GT3 was amazing and fun when I dialed it up a bit, but I just wasn't comfortable with that speed on the road, so I'd slow down and find myself somewhat bored and frustrated.
After switching to the Cayman, for the first couple of minutes I was a bit shocked at how much it felt like a jalopy compared to the GT3, as though it was at least a decade older. Much less accurate and intuitive steering, inferior damping and stability, inferior agility ... overall handling just not in the same league as the GT3. Felt lighter, but that was less of an advantage in the context of the overall inferior handling. The manual shifting also felt like a clunky and archaic process compared to GT3.
But as I drove the Cayman more, I found myself acclimating to anticipating the imperfections in its steering and handling, and adjusting for them with my inputs. And with the shifting, I found myself rising to the occasion and making the effort needed to effectively plan and execute the shifts. The car asked for more effort on my end, and making that effort made the car engaging - considerably more engaging than the GT3, at speeds more reasonable than the GT3.
So the bottom line for me (subjectively) is that the GT3 is a superior car by a considerable margin, but because of its inferiority the Cayman is the more enjoyable car on the road at reasonable speeds. Conversely, though I haven't tracked it yet, I'm anticipating that I'll be enjoying the GT3 more than the Cayman on the track, which is the main purpose I bought it for.
01-31-2015, 06:53 PM
#94
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01-31-2015, 07:11 PM
#95
Three Wheelin'
Yes I agree. It's a corollary of the no-creep characteristic. This is a subtle but awesome difference to all other autos where low speed manoeuvres are entirely controlled with creep vs brake.
01-31-2015, 07:35 PM
#96
Over 600 miles on the GT3 now. Took it out for a long drive, then came back and took the Cayman R for a drive, so it was my first comparo with the GT3.
A few qualifers are that the Cayman is on RE11 summer street tires (inferior to the SC2 on the GT3), and the shocks may be worn after well over a hundred track days on the car. It has manual trans, and GT2 seats which aren't height-adjustable and higher than I'd like.
As usual, the GT3 was amazing and fun when I dialed it up a bit, but I just wasn't comfortable with that speed on the road, so I'd slow down and find myself somewhat bored and frustrated.
After switching to the Cayman, for the first couple of minutes I was a bit shocked at how much it felt like a jalopy compared to the GT3, as though it was at least a decade older. Much less accurate and intuitive steering, inferior damping and stability, inferior agility ... overall handling just not in the same league as the GT3. Felt lighter, but that was less of an advantage in the context of the overall inferior handling. The manual shifting also felt like a clunky and archaic process compared to GT3.
But as I drove the Cayman more, I found myself acclimating to anticipating the imperfections in its steering and handling, and adjusting for them with my inputs. And with the shifting, I found myself rising to the occasion and making the effort needed to effectively plan and execute the shifts. The car asked for more effort on my end, and making that effort made the car engaging - considerably more engaging than the GT3, at speeds more reasonable than the GT3.
So the bottom line for me (subjectively) is that the GT3 is a superior car by a considerable margin, but because of its inferiority the Cayman is the more enjoyable car on the road at reasonable speeds. Conversely, though I haven't tracked it yet, I'm anticipating that I'll be enjoying the GT3 more than the Cayman on the track, which is the main purpose I bought it for.
A few qualifers are that the Cayman is on RE11 summer street tires (inferior to the SC2 on the GT3), and the shocks may be worn after well over a hundred track days on the car. It has manual trans, and GT2 seats which aren't height-adjustable and higher than I'd like.
As usual, the GT3 was amazing and fun when I dialed it up a bit, but I just wasn't comfortable with that speed on the road, so I'd slow down and find myself somewhat bored and frustrated.
After switching to the Cayman, for the first couple of minutes I was a bit shocked at how much it felt like a jalopy compared to the GT3, as though it was at least a decade older. Much less accurate and intuitive steering, inferior damping and stability, inferior agility ... overall handling just not in the same league as the GT3. Felt lighter, but that was less of an advantage in the context of the overall inferior handling. The manual shifting also felt like a clunky and archaic process compared to GT3.
But as I drove the Cayman more, I found myself acclimating to anticipating the imperfections in its steering and handling, and adjusting for them with my inputs. And with the shifting, I found myself rising to the occasion and making the effort needed to effectively plan and execute the shifts. The car asked for more effort on my end, and making that effort made the car engaging - considerably more engaging than the GT3, at speeds more reasonable than the GT3.
So the bottom line for me (subjectively) is that the GT3 is a superior car by a considerable margin, but because of its inferiority the Cayman is the more enjoyable car on the road at reasonable speeds. Conversely, though I haven't tracked it yet, I'm anticipating that I'll be enjoying the GT3 more than the Cayman on the track, which is the main purpose I bought it for.
Up until a year and a half ago I had a 2003 M3 that was an absolute blast. It was capable, but not other-worldly. I was going to find my limit well before the car was at 10/10ths, but I still felt like I was getting an experience that involved a lot of the "special sauce" that the car had to offer while being a bit of a hooligan.
The GT3 though is bordering, heck, I could argue is well into, the other-worldly category. I'm not sure how many 10ths could be had on public roads without endangering myself or others. I was watching a Chris Harris video a bit ago and I think he mentioned the 9000 RPM redline comes at 74 MPH in second gear! So seeing your comparison between your GT3 and your Cayman R is sort of validating what I've been thinking... If I can't get a PDK in a GT4, maybe going over to a Cayman GTS might offer the more rewarding on-road experience versus stepping over to the 991 GT3. I know that in every measurable way I'd be in the slower car, but might I also be in the more fun road car?
I have driven both a Cayman S and a 991 C2S, and I really liked the both of them. The C2S had a lot more drama due to some of the options (PSE, PASM) but the Cayman was like a go cart. When I was trying to explain the differences after the drives I likened the C2S to one of the big cats: stalking, powerful, ready to explode at any moment. The Cayman S was more like an Australian Shepherd: smart, quick, agile, always looking to run around, and always with a big smile on his face... I'm not sure if that analogy reads well, but it hopefully gets me back to my point.
The GT4 was, in my mind, going to be that blend of 'bordering on the other-worldly' and of something I could feel confident in daily driving, having some fun, knowing it's limits were higher than mine, but not so stratospherically higher that I would feel like I was driving something that I would never truly appreciate.
Please don't take this as any mark against the GT3, that thing is an amazing car, and I'm still wrestling with it as an option if the GT4 is MT only. I've just been wondering if it would just be a massive overkill for daily road duty.
Another option is, of course, that I am trying to apply logic to a decision that is totally illogical.
-nh4.
01-31-2015, 07:36 PM
#97
Burning Brakes
I came from a Cayman R also and yes the two car are in different league altogether. That does not make either bad, just totally different. I still have an appreciation for the R but in the end, the this GT3 was the one I was waiting for all along. Can't wait to see what it will be like on the track in the summer
01-31-2015, 08:09 PM
#98
I came from a Cayman R also and yes the two car are in different league altogether. That does not make either bad, just totally different. I still have an appreciation for the R but in the end, the this GT3 was the one I was waiting for all along. Can't wait to see what it will be like on the track in the summer
-nh4.
01-31-2015, 08:14 PM
#99
Burning Brakes
https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3/...-blue-gt3.html
02-01-2015, 11:43 AM
#100
Race Director
In a nut shell, for me, there are many cars that would/are more fun to drive below 5000 rpms around town when compared to the 991 GT3. My Audi R8 V10 is a perfect example. But, over 5000 rpms there are few, if any, that are more fun to drive than the GT3. When Manifold, a few months ago, gave his impressions after he test drove the GT3 and kept it below 5000 rpm he was correct in his assessment. The GT3 has a split personality and that is why I drive it. I also live between 4000-7000 on the road and do stretch its legs when permitted. Nirvana at its best.
02-01-2015, 12:11 PM
#101
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In a nut shell, for me, there are many cars that would/are more fun to drive below 5000 rpms around town when compared to the 991 GT3. My Audi R8 V10 is a perfect example. But, over 5000 rpms there are few, if any, that are more fun to drive than the GT3. When Manifold, a few months ago, gave his impressions after he test drove the GT3 and kept it below 5000 rpm he was correct in his assessment. The GT3 has a split personality and that is why I drive it. I also live between 4000-7000 on the road and do stretch its legs when permitted. Nirvana at its best.
02-01-2015, 12:40 PM
#102
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nh4,
I think that the more test driving you can do, the better, preferably back to back, since that can highlight differences and overcome some of the deficits of relying on memory. And of course the test driving will ideally be at a pace and on the roads that reflect what you'll experience as an owner.
Realistically, I don't know if there are any cars made today that we can fully exploit on public roads. Even a minivan can be driven consistently well above speed limits if the driver has the ability and desire. And so any sports car, sports sedan, etc. is amply fast for the road. I have fond memories of flogging our heavy under-200hp 325xi wagon on all-season tires, redlining it routinely without finding myself going too fast ...
But even after my comparo yesterday and knowing the conclusion I reached, the GT3 is the car I'm in a mood to drive today. There's something seductive about the car, it gets into my head and messes with it, makes me want to continue exploring the car and see what it can offer, even within the stifling limitations of public roads.
When you look at the car, it's special. When you sit in it, it's special. When you start it up and experience the sensations of the sound and the rough idle, it's special. When you grab the wheel and feel its firmness and the alcantara, it's special. When you put it in R and it doesn't move because you need to give it some gas, it's special. When you worry about scraping the front and see the wing in the rearview mirror, reminding you of the aero, it's special.
When you get going and experience the steering, handling, and uniqueness of the transmission, it's special. That's when you find yourself yearning for more, because you know the car can give so much more, but sanity and a sense of responsibility prevent you from going there. I think that how each driver feels when in this zone is the deciding factor. Some will feel bored, not engaged enough, frustrated like tantalus. Others will be content with it because they also track the car and know they can experience its higher reaches often enough. Others will see the glass half full and be content with what they're experiencing, and the pleasure of owning an engineering masterpiece, even if the higher reaches will always be out of reach.
Of course I've only had the GT3 a couple of weeks and my impressions are based on limited experience and reflect only one person's view, so I'd encourage you to hear as many opinions on the car as you can from other owners. But again, the car needs to be experienced, so test driving is best, if you can arrange it.
It's funny that you mentioned big cats, because I've repeatedly been thinking how the GT3 reminds me of a panther. And if it's a panther, the Cayman R is sort of like a kitty cat which the GT3 could eat for lunch!
I think that the more test driving you can do, the better, preferably back to back, since that can highlight differences and overcome some of the deficits of relying on memory. And of course the test driving will ideally be at a pace and on the roads that reflect what you'll experience as an owner.
Realistically, I don't know if there are any cars made today that we can fully exploit on public roads. Even a minivan can be driven consistently well above speed limits if the driver has the ability and desire. And so any sports car, sports sedan, etc. is amply fast for the road. I have fond memories of flogging our heavy under-200hp 325xi wagon on all-season tires, redlining it routinely without finding myself going too fast ...
But even after my comparo yesterday and knowing the conclusion I reached, the GT3 is the car I'm in a mood to drive today. There's something seductive about the car, it gets into my head and messes with it, makes me want to continue exploring the car and see what it can offer, even within the stifling limitations of public roads.
When you look at the car, it's special. When you sit in it, it's special. When you start it up and experience the sensations of the sound and the rough idle, it's special. When you grab the wheel and feel its firmness and the alcantara, it's special. When you put it in R and it doesn't move because you need to give it some gas, it's special. When you worry about scraping the front and see the wing in the rearview mirror, reminding you of the aero, it's special.
When you get going and experience the steering, handling, and uniqueness of the transmission, it's special. That's when you find yourself yearning for more, because you know the car can give so much more, but sanity and a sense of responsibility prevent you from going there. I think that how each driver feels when in this zone is the deciding factor. Some will feel bored, not engaged enough, frustrated like tantalus. Others will be content with it because they also track the car and know they can experience its higher reaches often enough. Others will see the glass half full and be content with what they're experiencing, and the pleasure of owning an engineering masterpiece, even if the higher reaches will always be out of reach.
Of course I've only had the GT3 a couple of weeks and my impressions are based on limited experience and reflect only one person's view, so I'd encourage you to hear as many opinions on the car as you can from other owners. But again, the car needs to be experienced, so test driving is best, if you can arrange it.
It's funny that you mentioned big cats, because I've repeatedly been thinking how the GT3 reminds me of a panther. And if it's a panther, the Cayman R is sort of like a kitty cat which the GT3 could eat for lunch!
02-01-2015, 12:58 PM
#103
Thank you. Here is my thread on the car with some photos (not the best. They were taken by me with my cellphone) included
https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3/...-blue-gt3.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3/...-blue-gt3.html
In a nut shell, for me, there are many cars that would/are more fun to drive below 5000 rpms around town when compared to the 991 GT3. My Audi R8 V10 is a perfect example. But, over 5000 rpms there are few, if any, that are more fun to drive than the GT3. When Manifold, a few months ago, gave his impressions after he test drove the GT3 and kept it below 5000 rpm he was correct in his assessment. The GT3 has a split personality and that is why I drive it. I also live between 4000-7000 on the road and do stretch its legs when permitted. Nirvana at its best.
The irritating thing the keeps pushing me away from the R8 is that my local Audi dealer said the only way I'd be let out in one for a drive was if I signed a purchase and sale with the test drive as a condition. The sales associate didn't really even want to unlock the car so I could sit in it. This really floored me since a few months previous to this I had no issues setting up a drive in a McLaren 12c.
I may have to give the Audi dealer another shot though at this point I much prefer the guys at Porsche.
Having had both the v10 R8 and now the GT3, would you mind writing up more of the differences between the two as daily drivers? I understand they are very different, I'm just curious what some of the big glaring things are that make either better or worse as a DD.
Thanks,
-nh4.
02-01-2015, 01:06 PM
#104
Thanks!
The v10 R8 is another car that's on my list, particularly the newer dual-clutch ones. I know the redesign is slated for next year, and might break cover sometime this year, but I quite like the looks of the current one, particularly the little tweaks done on the 'plus' model.
The irritating thing the keeps pushing me away from the R8 is that my local Audi dealer said the only way I'd be let out in one for a drive was if I signed a purchase and sale with the test drive as a condition. The sales associate didn't really even want to unlock the car so I could sit in it. This really floored me since a few months previous to this I had no issues setting up a drive in a McLaren 12c.
I may have to give the Audi dealer another shot though at this point I much prefer the guys at Porsche.
Having had both the v10 R8 and now the GT3, would you mind writing up more of the differences between the two as daily drivers? I understand they are very different, I'm just curious what some of the big glaring things are that make either better or worse as a DD.
Thanks,
-nh4.
The v10 R8 is another car that's on my list, particularly the newer dual-clutch ones. I know the redesign is slated for next year, and might break cover sometime this year, but I quite like the looks of the current one, particularly the little tweaks done on the 'plus' model.
The irritating thing the keeps pushing me away from the R8 is that my local Audi dealer said the only way I'd be let out in one for a drive was if I signed a purchase and sale with the test drive as a condition. The sales associate didn't really even want to unlock the car so I could sit in it. This really floored me since a few months previous to this I had no issues setting up a drive in a McLaren 12c.
I may have to give the Audi dealer another shot though at this point I much prefer the guys at Porsche.
Having had both the v10 R8 and now the GT3, would you mind writing up more of the differences between the two as daily drivers? I understand they are very different, I'm just curious what some of the big glaring things are that make either better or worse as a DD.
Thanks,
-nh4.
02-01-2015, 01:22 PM
#105
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
In a nut shell, for me, there are many cars that would/are more fun to drive below 5000 rpms around town when compared to the 991 GT3. My Audi R8 V10 is a perfect example. But, over 5000 rpms there are few, if any, that are more fun to drive than the GT3. When Manifold, a few months ago, gave his impressions after he test drove the GT3 and kept it below 5000 rpm he was correct in his assessment. The GT3 has a split personality and that is why I drive it. I also live between 4000-7000 on the road and do stretch its legs when permitted. Nirvana at its best.
In fact, for those lamenting the fact that the 991 GT3 is not as involving to drive as the 997 iteration, try driving our cars around town, keeping the revs below 4k, and to drive it smoothly without giving yourself or your passenger motion sickness.
Takes some wherewithal to feather the pedal, pull both paddles (to go into neutral) to stop without the car bucking likes it's an wild horse.