Impressions of GT3 (Manifold)
02-01-2015, 01:30 PM
#106
nh4,
I think that the more test driving you can do, the better, preferably back to back, since that can highlight differences and overcome some of the deficits of relying on memory. And of course the test driving will ideally be at a pace and on the roads that reflect what you'll experience as an owner.
Realistically, I don't know if there are any cars made today that we can fully exploit on public roads. Even a minivan can be driven consistently well above speed limits if the driver has the ability and desire. And so any sports car, sports sedan, etc. is amply fast for the road. I have fond memories of flogging our heavy under-200hp 325xi wagon on all-season tires, redlining it routinely without finding myself going too fast ...
But even after my comparo yesterday and knowing the conclusion I reached, the GT3 is the car I'm in a mood to drive today. There's something seductive about the car, it gets into my head and messes with it, makes me want to continue exploring the car and see what it can offer, even within the stifling limitations of public roads.
When you look at the car, it's special. When you sit in it, it's special. When you start it up and experience the sensations of the sound and the rough idle, it's special. When you grab the wheel and feel its firmness and the alcantara, it's special. When you put it in R and it doesn't move because you need to give it some gas, it's special. When you worry about scraping the front and see the wing in the rearview mirror, reminding you of the aero, it's special.
When you get going and experience the steering, handling, and uniqueness of the transmission, it's special. That's when you find yourself yearning for more, because you know the car can give so much more, but sanity and a sense of responsibility prevent you from going there. I think that how each driver feels when in this zone is the deciding factor. Some will feel bored, not engaged enough, frustrated like tantalus. Others will be content with it because they also track the car and know they can experience its higher reaches often enough. Others will see the glass half full and be content with what they're experiencing, and the pleasure of owning an engineering masterpiece, even if the higher reaches will always be out of reach.
Of course I've only had the GT3 a couple of weeks and my impressions are based on limited experience and reflect only one person's view, so I'd encourage you to hear as many opinions on the car as you can from other owners. But again, the car needs to be experienced, so test driving is best, if you can arrange it.
It's funny that you mentioned big cats, because I've repeatedly been thinking how the GT3 reminds me of a panther. And if it's a panther, the Cayman R is sort of like a kitty cat which the GT3 could eat for lunch!
I think that the more test driving you can do, the better, preferably back to back, since that can highlight differences and overcome some of the deficits of relying on memory. And of course the test driving will ideally be at a pace and on the roads that reflect what you'll experience as an owner.
Realistically, I don't know if there are any cars made today that we can fully exploit on public roads. Even a minivan can be driven consistently well above speed limits if the driver has the ability and desire. And so any sports car, sports sedan, etc. is amply fast for the road. I have fond memories of flogging our heavy under-200hp 325xi wagon on all-season tires, redlining it routinely without finding myself going too fast ...
But even after my comparo yesterday and knowing the conclusion I reached, the GT3 is the car I'm in a mood to drive today. There's something seductive about the car, it gets into my head and messes with it, makes me want to continue exploring the car and see what it can offer, even within the stifling limitations of public roads.
When you look at the car, it's special. When you sit in it, it's special. When you start it up and experience the sensations of the sound and the rough idle, it's special. When you grab the wheel and feel its firmness and the alcantara, it's special. When you put it in R and it doesn't move because you need to give it some gas, it's special. When you worry about scraping the front and see the wing in the rearview mirror, reminding you of the aero, it's special.
When you get going and experience the steering, handling, and uniqueness of the transmission, it's special. That's when you find yourself yearning for more, because you know the car can give so much more, but sanity and a sense of responsibility prevent you from going there. I think that how each driver feels when in this zone is the deciding factor. Some will feel bored, not engaged enough, frustrated like tantalus. Others will be content with it because they also track the car and know they can experience its higher reaches often enough. Others will see the glass half full and be content with what they're experiencing, and the pleasure of owning an engineering masterpiece, even if the higher reaches will always be out of reach.
Of course I've only had the GT3 a couple of weeks and my impressions are based on limited experience and reflect only one person's view, so I'd encourage you to hear as many opinions on the car as you can from other owners. But again, the car needs to be experienced, so test driving is best, if you can arrange it.
It's funny that you mentioned big cats, because I've repeatedly been thinking how the GT3 reminds me of a panther. And if it's a panther, the Cayman R is sort of like a kitty cat which the GT3 could eat for lunch!
As it is right now, we just had 33" of snow last week and are about to get another 8"-12" tomorrow, so needless to say, the opportunities to drive any of the cars I'm interested in is currently pretty limited. I've been keeping a mental tally of what's interesting to me and come spring I'll be getting more serious about finding the right car.
I'm still holding on to some hope that the GT4 is not MT only, since everything else on my list; 991 GT3, v10 R8, new NSX, McLaren P13 (Sports Series) is in another league price-wise. I probably will try out the Cayman GTS, and see if it ticks enough boxes beyond the price point, but I have a feeling I'm going to be craving that 'special' feeling in the post I quoted.
It certainly is a good time to be a gearhead! All sorts of great options either here or on the horizon.
-nh4.
02-01-2015, 01:33 PM
#107
I was pretty surprised as well that they wouldn't let me take it out. I was also a bit put off by the entire attitude I was given for even asking to sit in the car.
-nh4.
02-01-2015, 10:30 PM
#108
Race Director
nh4- The R8 V10 is a great car and has the best gated 6-speed manual period. Engine is very smooth and linear. Great exhaust sound and the car gets way too much attention.( some may like that and others' not)
Now - here comes my opinion from my own personal experience. Despite how exotic looking the R8 looks for some reason after several months driving it and then looking at it over a winter in my garage it no longer looked that special. I guess the appeal slightly wore off where that has never happened with my Porsches. One of the great features of the R8 is that it is mid-engine and very balanced and predictable. But that is what I did not like. It was actually too easy to drive. May be a little boring. Also, the car has a little weight( 4 wheel drive) and you can feel it. The steering is also a little numb.
In the end; the R8 has a nice market niche in my opinion. It is a true luxury sport car. I like my toys a little more raw and also to look that part- but every one must decide what floats their boat
I am sure many may or may not disagree with my opinion but every one has their own.
Now - here comes my opinion from my own personal experience. Despite how exotic looking the R8 looks for some reason after several months driving it and then looking at it over a winter in my garage it no longer looked that special. I guess the appeal slightly wore off where that has never happened with my Porsches. One of the great features of the R8 is that it is mid-engine and very balanced and predictable. But that is what I did not like. It was actually too easy to drive. May be a little boring. Also, the car has a little weight( 4 wheel drive) and you can feel it. The steering is also a little numb.
In the end; the R8 has a nice market niche in my opinion. It is a true luxury sport car. I like my toys a little more raw and also to look that part- but every one must decide what floats their boat
I am sure many may or may not disagree with my opinion but every one has their own.
02-02-2015, 10:43 AM
#109
nh4- The R8 V10 is a great car and has the best gated 6-speed manual period. Engine is very smooth and linear. Great exhaust sound and the car gets way too much attention.( some may like that and others' not)
Now - here comes my opinion from my own personal experience. Despite how exotic looking the R8 looks for some reason after several months driving it and then looking at it over a winter in my garage it no longer looked that special. I guess the appeal slightly wore off where that has never happened with my Porsches. One of the great features of the R8 is that it is mid-engine and very balanced and predictable. But that is what I did not like. It was actually too easy to drive. May be a little boring. Also, the car has a little weight( 4 wheel drive) and you can feel it. The steering is also a little numb.
In the end; the R8 has a nice market niche in my opinion. It is a true luxury sport car. I like my toys a little more raw and also to look that part- but every one must decide what floats their boat
I am sure many may or may not disagree with my opinion but every one has their own.
Now - here comes my opinion from my own personal experience. Despite how exotic looking the R8 looks for some reason after several months driving it and then looking at it over a winter in my garage it no longer looked that special. I guess the appeal slightly wore off where that has never happened with my Porsches. One of the great features of the R8 is that it is mid-engine and very balanced and predictable. But that is what I did not like. It was actually too easy to drive. May be a little boring. Also, the car has a little weight( 4 wheel drive) and you can feel it. The steering is also a little numb.
In the end; the R8 has a nice market niche in my opinion. It is a true luxury sport car. I like my toys a little more raw and also to look that part- but every one must decide what floats their boat
I am sure many may or may not disagree with my opinion but every one has their own.
-nh4.
02-02-2015, 11:01 AM
#110
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Thanks for the feedback! I know what I am looking for is real engagement when driving. I think your comment about the R8 being too easy to drive might be something that would get to me as well... This is why I keep coming back to the Cayman GT4, or the 991 GT3, the feedback seems near universal (on the GT3 side) that the driver engagement is epic.
-nh4.
-nh4.
02-02-2015, 11:27 AM
#111
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This is a bit 'out there', but I've been dabbling in philosophy of mind lately, and it occurred to me that the GT3 experience may be so difficult to capture in words because the car produces unique qualia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia
Per the idea of qualia, the car could elicit different qualia for each of us, and when we each try to describe those qualia, there may be significant differences in the qualia despite our using the same descriptive words.
Per the idea of qualia, the car could elicit different qualia for each of us, and when we each try to describe those qualia, there may be significant differences in the qualia despite our using the same descriptive words.
02-02-2015, 11:53 AM
#112
Three Wheelin'
This is a bit 'out there', but I've been dabbling in philosophy of mind lately, and it occurred to me that the GT3 experience may be so difficult to capture in words because the car produces unique qualia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia
Per the idea of qualia, the car could elicit different qualia for each of us, and when we each try to describe those qualia, there may be significant differences in the qualia despite our using the same descriptive words.
Per the idea of qualia, the car could elicit different qualia for each of us, and when we each try to describe those qualia, there may be significant differences in the qualia despite our using the same descriptive words.
02-02-2015, 12:23 PM
#113
This is a bit 'out there', but I've been dabbling in philosophy of mind lately, and it occurred to me that the GT3 experience may be so difficult to capture in words because the car produces unique qualia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia
Per the idea of qualia, the car could elicit different qualia for each of us, and when we each try to describe those qualia, there may be significant differences in the qualia despite our using the same descriptive words.
Per the idea of qualia, the car could elicit different qualia for each of us, and when we each try to describe those qualia, there may be significant differences in the qualia despite our using the same descriptive words.
To follow the philosophy a bit, I think what qualia speaks to (pun intended) is the limits of language in conveying something that is in any way subjective. The generalities of like / dislike are easy enough to state, but trying to explain the weighing, interpretation, and quality of the information used to get to the conclusion is not always so straight forward and is certainly not a universal among all people.
To come back to wine, it's amazing to me what some people come up with for what they are tasting. Particularly when the descriptors used are either things that don't exist, or things you can be pretty sure the person has never put in their mouth... "The unripened husk of bluefruit." "Lead pencil." "unleaded gasoline". To me, it mostly tastes like grape juice, but with more fun.
I did get the unleaded gasoline one... That is apparently the smell of an aged Riesling. Thankfully it tasted nothing like that!
-nh4.
02-02-2015, 03:21 PM
#114
Nordschleife Master
This is a bit 'out there', but I've been dabbling in philosophy of mind lately, and it occurred to me that the GT3 experience may be so difficult to capture in words because the car produces unique qualia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia
Per the idea of qualia, the car could elicit different qualia for each of us, and when we each try to describe those qualia, there may be significant differences in the qualia despite our using the same descriptive words.
Per the idea of qualia, the car could elicit different qualia for each of us, and when we each try to describe those qualia, there may be significant differences in the qualia despite our using the same descriptive words.
Interesting use of the latin language. I would also think this car is nulli secundus, latin for "second to none"
02-04-2015, 04:19 PM
#115
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I noticed something interesting today.
If you pull a paddle just a little bit, without clicking the paddle, that will be enough to send a shift signal. So part of the reason for the shifts being perceived as so instant may be that our minds anticipate the shift when the paddle is clicked, but the shift signal is sent before the click.
I'm finding it annoying that the upshifts are delayed when the car is being driven modestly. I don't see why those upshifts couldn't have a less of a bang, but still be just as quick. It's certainly not annoying enough to ruin the experience of driving the car, but annoying nonetheless.
If you pull a paddle just a little bit, without clicking the paddle, that will be enough to send a shift signal. So part of the reason for the shifts being perceived as so instant may be that our minds anticipate the shift when the paddle is clicked, but the shift signal is sent before the click.
I'm finding it annoying that the upshifts are delayed when the car is being driven modestly. I don't see why those upshifts couldn't have a less of a bang, but still be just as quick. It's certainly not annoying enough to ruin the experience of driving the car, but annoying nonetheless.
02-04-2015, 07:56 PM
#117
Three Wheelin'
02-12-2015, 11:34 AM
#118
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About 1200 miles on the car now, generally staying within Porsche guidelines for break-in, but allowing up to 5000 rpm instead of 4200.
Continuing the theme of a journal of impressions, some recent observations:
- Took the car on some long highway drives recently. At highway speeds, 7th gear, decent road surface, I can forget that I'm in a sports car - the car is fairly quiet, smooth, and easy to drive. But when the road surface becomes rough, I'm reminded that it's a sports car. The sound level increases a bit in 6th, and considerably louder in 5th.
- Overall, I continue to feel that this car is too capable and fast for the roads available to me. I can't see myself driving it on the road much for fun. But really none of the cars have been much fun for me on the road since I started going to the track, so this issue isn't unique to the GT3.
- The best roads I've found for the car so far are undulating and tightly winding roads, similar to what Macca described. But I don't have many such roads around here.
- The center console, adjacent to the gear selector, is higher than I'd like, to the extent of interfering with my right elbow if I keep my hands at 9-3 on the wheel. I can remedy that by moving the seat and steering wheel a little higher, though I'd prefer having the seat all the way down.
- Why do people always pull up so close behind me at stop lights/signs?
Continuing the theme of a journal of impressions, some recent observations:
- Took the car on some long highway drives recently. At highway speeds, 7th gear, decent road surface, I can forget that I'm in a sports car - the car is fairly quiet, smooth, and easy to drive. But when the road surface becomes rough, I'm reminded that it's a sports car. The sound level increases a bit in 6th, and considerably louder in 5th.
- Overall, I continue to feel that this car is too capable and fast for the roads available to me. I can't see myself driving it on the road much for fun. But really none of the cars have been much fun for me on the road since I started going to the track, so this issue isn't unique to the GT3.
- The best roads I've found for the car so far are undulating and tightly winding roads, similar to what Macca described. But I don't have many such roads around here.
- The center console, adjacent to the gear selector, is higher than I'd like, to the extent of interfering with my right elbow if I keep my hands at 9-3 on the wheel. I can remedy that by moving the seat and steering wheel a little higher, though I'd prefer having the seat all the way down.
- Why do people always pull up so close behind me at stop lights/signs?
02-22-2015, 06:31 PM
#119
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After the GT3 being in hibernation for more than a week, I took advantage of the warmer weather today and went for a 60-mile drive. Some observations:
- The car didn't feel special immediately. Took several minutes to regain my previous appreciation for it.
- At almost 1300 miles, I'm still somewhat following Porsche break-in guidelines, but occasionally allowing up to ~6k rpm. The usable torque on the road is definitely lacking compared to my C63 AMG (6.2L NA V8, 443 ft-lb) due to the GT3 needing to be 'wound up' to really get going.
- OTOH, sound of the GT3 above 5k rpm is insane, whereas the C63 doesn't seem to enjoy being above 5k rpm.
- I was shifting mostly with the stick, and the lock thingy on the top of the stick continues to annoy me.
- The amount of force needed to click the paddles seems a little more than necessary.
- The car didn't feel special immediately. Took several minutes to regain my previous appreciation for it.
- At almost 1300 miles, I'm still somewhat following Porsche break-in guidelines, but occasionally allowing up to ~6k rpm. The usable torque on the road is definitely lacking compared to my C63 AMG (6.2L NA V8, 443 ft-lb) due to the GT3 needing to be 'wound up' to really get going.
- OTOH, sound of the GT3 above 5k rpm is insane, whereas the C63 doesn't seem to enjoy being above 5k rpm.
- I was shifting mostly with the stick, and the lock thingy on the top of the stick continues to annoy me.
- The amount of force needed to click the paddles seems a little more than necessary.
02-22-2015, 06:44 PM
#120
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Manifold. 1300 miles and only up to 6,000 rpm? Mate you have the patience of a saint or you have found the elixir of life and intend to live 500 years. We should know you as "The Highlander".
Seriously. Just get in it, warm it up and wind it out mate - they are messing with your North American head with that 2000 miles at 4200 rubbish in the USA manual. We've been through this before, you didn't believe me about the GT3 back then so do yourself a favour and believe me now :-)!
On a more serious note - you are right, getting back in the car from a while away seems pretty underwhelming....till you get around 7500+ rpm then remember that's around where your other Porsche hits its redline, then the engine keeps going and going and going till its pushing corrected piston speeds of almost 27m/s (thanks Petervb!) and is still warranted for 5 years and 100,000 km including track (for 2014 owners). Pretty amazing. Lets enjoy it!
Seriously. Just get in it, warm it up and wind it out mate - they are messing with your North American head with that 2000 miles at 4200 rubbish in the USA manual. We've been through this before, you didn't believe me about the GT3 back then so do yourself a favour and believe me now :-)!
On a more serious note - you are right, getting back in the car from a while away seems pretty underwhelming....till you get around 7500+ rpm then remember that's around where your other Porsche hits its redline, then the engine keeps going and going and going till its pushing corrected piston speeds of almost 27m/s (thanks Petervb!) and is still warranted for 5 years and 100,000 km including track (for 2014 owners). Pretty amazing. Lets enjoy it!