PCNA GT3 Auction is at 4PM today
09-24-2014, 02:10 PM
#227
Rennlist Member
Yes.
Title washing and it happens all the time.
Fortunately for a future buyer of one of these 20 cars the VIN #'s will be all over the world wide web so everyone and their Mom will know about these 20 cars original title designation.
Title washing and it happens all the time.
Fortunately for a future buyer of one of these 20 cars the VIN #'s will be all over the world wide web so everyone and their Mom will know about these 20 cars original title designation.
09-24-2014, 02:15 PM
#228
Race Director
Interesting. Dealer in CA or other state has a car that would be branded lemon title, sells it to buyer in GA. It is sold clean title then the Dealer buys it back and then sells in CA or other lemon law title state with a clean or "laundered" title? Not a bad deal for the dealer paying say $800.00 shipping. Bad for the consumer who is unaware and unprotected from the lemon law titling intent.
The bottom line is that these cars really aren't damaged goods in the usual sense of a lemon so it doesn't seem all that unreasonable that they shouldn't have to carry that title.
Appreciate your comment, Dan!
09-24-2014, 02:18 PM
#229
Look, to those of you who have bought or are waiting for your 991, you are going YIPPE! and me too with a 2010, YIPPE. My car is worth more. That is not the point. The issue is these games that PNA are playing with these...(fill in the blanks) bought back, branded, washed, titles are doing ALL of us a big disservice. I want to meet the guy who's laying down $150,000+ for these cars and NOT knowing their history! Its not good, no matter how you slice it!
09-24-2014, 02:25 PM
#230
I'm not sure why this is a big deal. It's 20 cars very small in the scheme of things. If a person drops 160k surly he can afford the car, and wants it. If the cars in question sold for 100k some of you would be pissed. My 2015 is at the dock, and I'm smiling from ear to ear so should all of the owners. Low supply equals high demand for those who are interested in resale.
What should happen to the cars destroy them? They are perfectly sound working cars, and I would sell them for a premium too. It's market demand. Sorry I'm just lost on this one why would anyone care?
What should happen to the cars destroy them? They are perfectly sound working cars, and I would sell them for a premium too. It's market demand. Sorry I'm just lost on this one why would anyone care?
09-24-2014, 02:27 PM
#231
Three Wheelin'
We keep using the lemon word and I honestly don't know if that's appropriate. Eduardo's post mentions "salvage" and the fact that once the car has been auctioned that moniker disappears. My use of the word laundered implies something intentionally shady and I suspect that's not appropriate either.
The bottom line is that these cars really aren't damaged goods in the usual sense of a lemon so it doesn't seem all that unreasonable that they shouldn't have to carry that title.
Appreciate your comment, Dan!
The bottom line is that these cars really aren't damaged goods in the usual sense of a lemon so it doesn't seem all that unreasonable that they shouldn't have to carry that title.
Appreciate your comment, Dan!
09-24-2014, 02:27 PM
#232
Burning Brakes
Let me add some information which will help clarify things. Both California and Florida DO brand titles which were subject to a manufacturer's buyback.
When a certificate of title is branded to reflect a condition or prior use of the titled vehicle, the brand must be noted on the registration certificate of the vehicle and such brand shall be carried forward on all subsequent certificates of title and registration certificates issued for the life of the vehicle.
The brand sticks with the vehicle from one transaction to another, but only if the buyback and the subsequent sale occur in the state with the branded title laws. So if the car was bought back in Florida or California and subsequently sold there, the car would remain branded.
Where you have a "washed title" is if the buyback occurs in a state like Florida or California, and then ownership transfers to a Georgia dealer for example, as GA does NOT brand lemon law cars. The Georgia title will have no brand to reflect the cars history as a buyback.
My guess is that if you look and see what dealers bought these cars, you will find that the dealers in states like Georgia will have paid more for the cars since there will be no branding. Also, keep in mind that just because a dealer in CA bought the car, it doesn't preclude him from selling it to a non-branding state reseller for a profit.
When a certificate of title is branded to reflect a condition or prior use of the titled vehicle, the brand must be noted on the registration certificate of the vehicle and such brand shall be carried forward on all subsequent certificates of title and registration certificates issued for the life of the vehicle.
The brand sticks with the vehicle from one transaction to another, but only if the buyback and the subsequent sale occur in the state with the branded title laws. So if the car was bought back in Florida or California and subsequently sold there, the car would remain branded.
Where you have a "washed title" is if the buyback occurs in a state like Florida or California, and then ownership transfers to a Georgia dealer for example, as GA does NOT brand lemon law cars. The Georgia title will have no brand to reflect the cars history as a buyback.
My guess is that if you look and see what dealers bought these cars, you will find that the dealers in states like Georgia will have paid more for the cars since there will be no branding. Also, keep in mind that just because a dealer in CA bought the car, it doesn't preclude him from selling it to a non-branding state reseller for a profit.
09-24-2014, 02:28 PM
#233
Three Wheelin'
We keep using the lemon word and I honestly don't know if that's appropriate. Eduardo's post mentions that "salvage" is on the title and the fact that once the car has been auctioned that moniker disappears. My use of the word laundered implies something intentionally shady and I suspect that's not appropriate either.
The bottom line is that these cars really aren't damaged goods in the usual sense of a lemon so it doesn't seem all that unreasonable that they shouldn't have to carry that title.
Appreciate your comment, Dan!
The bottom line is that these cars really aren't damaged goods in the usual sense of a lemon so it doesn't seem all that unreasonable that they shouldn't have to carry that title.
Appreciate your comment, Dan!
I interpret this to mean for certain states, such as Georgia, only a car that was declared a total loss by an insurance company and is repaired and given a "salvage title" after repair is marked with any kind of negative reporting on a title. Georgia doesn't list "lemon law title" and only lists "salvage title" when that case applies. So, if the car was salvaged, even in Georgia it would say Salvage title. But, if the car was a lemon in CA, it would have its title defect scrubbed after sale in GA since it is not salvage title but merely lemon law title which is meaningless in the state of Georgia.
California on the other hand may indicate "DMV$20, MANUFACTURER'S BUYBACK/LEMON LAW (AC) AS IS/NO ARB VEHICLE REPURCHASED FOR EXCESSIVE TIME DOWN WHILE WAITING FOR ENGINE TO BE REPLACED AS PART OF FEDERALLY MANDATED RECALL-REPLACED ENGINE"
https://rennlist.com/forums/991/8355...r-auction.html
That title will be scrubbed because the car was sold from GA. When it's brought back into CA, even though lemon laws intended the title to read as indicated above, that language will be missing. To that extent, I think your use of the word lemon and laundry is appropriate.
09-24-2014, 02:30 PM
#234
Three Wheelin'
Let me add some information which will help clarify things. Both California and Florida DO brand titles which were subject to a manufacturer's buyback.
When a certificate of title is branded to reflect a condition or prior use of the titled vehicle, the brand must be noted on the registration certificate of the vehicle and such brand shall be carried forward on all subsequent certificates of title and registration certificates issued for the life of the vehicle.
The brand sticks with the vehicle from one transaction to another, but only if the buyback and the subsequent sale occur in the state with the branded title laws. So if the car was bought back in Florida or California and subsequently sold there, the car would remain branded.
Where you have a "washed title" is if the buyback occurs in a state like Florida or California, and then ownership transfers to a Georgia dealer for example, as GA does NOT brand lemon law cars. The Georgia title will have no brand to reflect the cars history as a buyback.
My guess is that if you look and see what dealers bought these cars, you will find that the dealers in states like Georgia will have paid more for the cars since there will be no branding. Also, keep in mind that just because a dealer in CA bought the car, it doesn't preclude him from selling it to a non-branding state reseller for a profit.
When a certificate of title is branded to reflect a condition or prior use of the titled vehicle, the brand must be noted on the registration certificate of the vehicle and such brand shall be carried forward on all subsequent certificates of title and registration certificates issued for the life of the vehicle.
The brand sticks with the vehicle from one transaction to another, but only if the buyback and the subsequent sale occur in the state with the branded title laws. So if the car was bought back in Florida or California and subsequently sold there, the car would remain branded.
Where you have a "washed title" is if the buyback occurs in a state like Florida or California, and then ownership transfers to a Georgia dealer for example, as GA does NOT brand lemon law cars. The Georgia title will have no brand to reflect the cars history as a buyback.
My guess is that if you look and see what dealers bought these cars, you will find that the dealers in states like Georgia will have paid more for the cars since there will be no branding. Also, keep in mind that just because a dealer in CA bought the car, it doesn't preclude him from selling it to a non-branding state reseller for a profit.
09-24-2014, 02:32 PM
#235
Instructor
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Southern California
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IMO, most (not all) GT3 buyers for these cars will be aware of the issues; not many will be sheep-to-slaughter. PCNA isn't doing anything nefarious and I don't get how it hurts anybody. Darwin Award candidates excepted, there are many people jonesing on this car without a current confirmed allocation that want the chance to own one now. Give it to them...Laissez faire.
09-24-2014, 02:33 PM
#236
Race Director
Look, to those of you who have bought or are waiting for your 991, you are going YIPPE! and me too with a 2010, YIPPE. My car is worth more. That is not the point. The issue is these games that PNA are playing with these...(fill in the blanks) bought back, branded, washed, titles are doing ALL of us a big disservice. I want to meet the guy who's laying down $150,000+ for these cars and NOT knowing their history! Its not good, no matter how you slice it!
But look at this from another perspective. There actually is nothing wrong with these cars, any more than there is anything wrong with other Cat A, B, or C cars that owners chose not to sell back or didn't decline delivery. Let's say a fully informed buyer obtains one of the auction cars. At that point it's not really fair to him that his car is branded with a lemon or salvage title that is strictly due to a paperwork issue. It's also in his interest for the title to be clear.
09-24-2014, 02:33 PM
#237
Three Wheelin'
I don't think Edwardo was saying a salvage title moniker disappears after auction. Edwardo said this: "In this particular state, the only 'branded' title is salvage. And this, according to the General Manager of this Porsche dealership, will not be a 'salvage title'! As far as this dealership is concerned, this gt3 is one more car to sell into a high demand environment!"
I interpret this to mean for certain states, such as Georgia, only a car that was declared a total loss by an insurance company and is repaired and given a "salvage title" after repair is marked with any kind of negative reporting on a title. Georgia doesn't list "lemon law title" and only lists "salvage title" when that case applies. So, if the car was salvaged, even in Georgia it would say Salvage title. But, if the car was a lemon in CA, it would have its title defect scrubbed after sale in GA since it is not salvage title but merely lemon law title which is meaningless in the state of Georgia.
California on the other hand may indicate "DMV$20, MANUFACTURER'S BUYBACK/LEMON LAW (AC) AS IS/NO ARB VEHICLE REPURCHASED FOR EXCESSIVE TIME DOWN WHILE WAITING FOR ENGINE TO BE REPLACED AS PART OF FEDERALLY MANDATED RECALL-REPLACED ENGINE"
https://rennlist.com/forums/991/8355...r-auction.html
That title will be scrubbed because the car was sold from GA. When it's brought back into CA, even though lemon laws intended the title to read as indicated above, that language will be missing. To that extent, I think your use of the word lemon and laundry is appropriate.
I interpret this to mean for certain states, such as Georgia, only a car that was declared a total loss by an insurance company and is repaired and given a "salvage title" after repair is marked with any kind of negative reporting on a title. Georgia doesn't list "lemon law title" and only lists "salvage title" when that case applies. So, if the car was salvaged, even in Georgia it would say Salvage title. But, if the car was a lemon in CA, it would have its title defect scrubbed after sale in GA since it is not salvage title but merely lemon law title which is meaningless in the state of Georgia.
California on the other hand may indicate "DMV$20, MANUFACTURER'S BUYBACK/LEMON LAW (AC) AS IS/NO ARB VEHICLE REPURCHASED FOR EXCESSIVE TIME DOWN WHILE WAITING FOR ENGINE TO BE REPLACED AS PART OF FEDERALLY MANDATED RECALL-REPLACED ENGINE"
https://rennlist.com/forums/991/8355...r-auction.html
That title will be scrubbed because the car was sold from GA. When it's brought back into CA, even though lemon laws intended the title to read as indicated above, that language will be missing. To that extent, I think your use of the word lemon and laundry is appropriate.
09-24-2014, 02:39 PM
#238
Three Wheelin'
If the consensus here is to be believed almost NO ONE doesn't know the history of these cars. For the odd customer who doesn't know, hopefully the dealer will be honest about what they are selling. That would only be right.
But look at this from another perspective. There actually is nothing wrong with these cars, any more than there is anything wrong with other Cat A, B, or C cars that owners chose not to sell back or didn't decline delivery. Let's say a fully informed buyer obtains one of the auction cars. At that point it's not really fair to him that his car is branded with a lemon or salvage title that is strictly due to a paperwork issue. It's also in his interest for the title to be clear.
But look at this from another perspective. There actually is nothing wrong with these cars, any more than there is anything wrong with other Cat A, B, or C cars that owners chose not to sell back or didn't decline delivery. Let's say a fully informed buyer obtains one of the auction cars. At that point it's not really fair to him that his car is branded with a lemon or salvage title that is strictly due to a paperwork issue. It's also in his interest for the title to be clear.
09-24-2014, 02:42 PM
#239
Three Wheelin'
Dealers will probably not highlight the past when they're selling these cars. It's no surprise AcidShort was not advised his engine was replaced.
This is a email string with names cut out that basically shows how a sale will go down:
_______________
RE:Re: GT3
Any interest on 2014 GT3 at sticker
-------Original Message ------
I have placed a deposit on a 2015 GT3 and am advising you as a courtesy so as not to hold up an allocation on my behalf.
Thank you for your service and best of luck on another sale.
Dan
_______________
At what point do you think that dealer would have told me anything about what happened with 2014 GT3s? Unlike Rennlisters who are informed, the run of the mill person who doesn't research a car before purchase will only find out about the issue after the fact. And then will have that "bad taste in the mouth" just like AcidShort had after he found out.
Dan (has said enough about this and just feels badly for those who buy at MSRP+ without knowledge)
This is a email string with names cut out that basically shows how a sale will go down:
_______________
RE:Re: GT3
Any interest on 2014 GT3 at sticker
-------Original Message ------
I have placed a deposit on a 2015 GT3 and am advising you as a courtesy so as not to hold up an allocation on my behalf.
Thank you for your service and best of luck on another sale.
Dan
_______________
At what point do you think that dealer would have told me anything about what happened with 2014 GT3s? Unlike Rennlisters who are informed, the run of the mill person who doesn't research a car before purchase will only find out about the issue after the fact. And then will have that "bad taste in the mouth" just like AcidShort had after he found out.
Dan (has said enough about this and just feels badly for those who buy at MSRP+ without knowledge)
09-24-2014, 02:44 PM
#240
That seems to me to be the simplest explanation for this whole thing, to be honest. Who benefits from 20 engine-replaced, branded title GT3s being sold at auction at or near their original MSRPs?
It's not a ton of cars. Couldn't PAG could afford a little bit of side-dealing with bidders to avoid a lot of headaches from watchful current owners? Wouldn't you spend a little bit of money on the front end to avoid an embarrassing PR problem? Why was it a closed auction in the first place? Would it be legal to hold an auction where some of the bidders had a deal with the seller that the other bidders didn't know about?
Would you pay over MSRP for a branded-title 2014 sitting at the dealer, or pay MSRP for a 2015 that you had to wait a few months for?
It's not a ton of cars. Couldn't PAG could afford a little bit of side-dealing with bidders to avoid a lot of headaches from watchful current owners? Wouldn't you spend a little bit of money on the front end to avoid an embarrassing PR problem? Why was it a closed auction in the first place? Would it be legal to hold an auction where some of the bidders had a deal with the seller that the other bidders didn't know about?
Would you pay over MSRP for a branded-title 2014 sitting at the dealer, or pay MSRP for a 2015 that you had to wait a few months for?