reidry

991 GT3


991 GT3 RS - Believed to be final body


991 GT3 RSR

I know I'll be in the minority here and I don't want to upset the "I must have a GT3 RS apple cart." Now don't get me wrong, I certainly like the upcoming 991 GT3 RS, however I personally prefer the lines of the 991 GT3. The front fender vents aren't particularly doing it for me - less race car than the naca vents on the RSR. I personally have never cared for the 991 "turbo" intakes on the rear fenders, for me they break-up the lines across the rear fenders. I prefer the way the RSR rear fender vent is covered. Then the wing, the GT3 RS wing looks a little bit too J.C Whitney, not quite enough race car vibe.

No offense guys, and regardless of aesthetics I'm sure the 991 GT3 RS will bring plenty of performance.

Ryan

Mike in CA

Ryan, you may be in the minority, but you're not alone with regard to the aesthetics. Also, as impressive as the new RS will surely be, I want a car that will still be a relative pleasure to drive on the street and I'd have to be convinced the new RS can fill that role. I don't see it being very well suited for that kind of use.

Even if one doesn't care about street driving and wants a strictly hard core track car, there's no way the RS will get out the door for under $200K. My hat is off to those who would be financially willing and able to purchase, resupply, and use up this car for heavy tracking; it's above my pay grade.

Petevb

I could be light. I don't think we know yet for the 180 treadwear tires, I've heard 6 trackdays- I just got a set so we'll see. $2100 a set for the 991 GT3 tires, at $2400 for the RS you'd get ~30 sets for 70k, leaving some cash for brakes, etc. The point is that even if it's really $150k, I'd still think it'd be less than half what you'd spend on the same bits for a Cup over the same mileage.

GrantG

Too rich for my blood - that makes frequent tracking (I like to go weekly when the weather allows) pretty expensive (Cup or RS). I better stick to my 73 where the 15" tires cost 1/4 as much and last far longer. And my brake rotors last 5 seasons. And that car has passed far more GT3's than have passed it. This thread has been eye-opening and making me re-evaluate things a bit.

Macca

Pete. I just looked those up and you are right 2100 for 991 Gt3 sizes and 2500 for Gt3RS sizes in MPSC2 tradwear 180.

The real eye opener is when you look at Michelin Super Sports at $1400 a set in 991 GT3 sizes with treadwear 300.

I have the new Super sport on my 993s road wheels and I have found them very very good but have not tried them on the track I must confess (I use Hankook Z221/Z214 on track). However they are a modern gen/compound tyre and I have a fellow track mate who used them on his 997.2 GT3 in our spring track tour (as temps were still low in the mornings and track often damp for first few sessions). He was impressed with them as a road tyre on the track. A little more temperature sensitive (you need to pressure manage them straight after a session) and on a 2 mile track he said they were costing him around 1.5-2.0s in the try over MPSC1 which he had used on the car since new. In the wet he suggested that would be the other way around! He has since put Trogeo R on teh car and prefers them to MPSC1 but hasnt tried the MPSC2.

I bought a set of MPSS to try on the 991 GT3 after my Spring track tour (by then I suspect the original tyres will be almost all gone). Ill report on that later but for a 1.5-2.0s dry penalty (if indeed this is true and I can find out soon enough as I will have good data by then from the MPSC2) then I would be willing for the $700 USD a set savings, better wet/damp track traction and longer life with better wet road handling, to use these as my prime tyres. Of course if the 997.2 GT3s start circulating around me on their R comps too much I may feel different - however its not California here so chances are there will always be a bit of rain!

Macca

P.S. I would be surprised if those MPSC2 could do 6 full track days (say 2 hours of driving) at maximum attack. If so then they are very efficient indeed.

Grant. You must be one hell of a driver, have a substantially lightened or HP improved car or have some really crap GT3 drivers where you are LOL! My 993 is heavily track modified (but still essentially a 1300kg road car) and I can keep 996.1 & 996.2 GT3 honest in the toght stuff but I wouldnt be overtaking them very often at all (I dont have the torque or power on the straights). Infact I cant recall ever passing a 996/997GT3 in our group! I only run in the same private Porsche group (Rennsport Gruppe) however and all the guys have 1000s laps experience - its not a DE at all, these guys are generally very experienced on the tracks we run...

GrantG

I'm a decent amateur driver (with many years of experience), but yes my car is heavily modified:

1,890 pounds with half tank
235hp 2.7RS+ MFI motor
Custom-built (by Hayden at WEVO with all their options) gearbox with close/low ratios, Guard LSD, cooler, etc.
Bilstein RSR Coilovers (replacing torsion bars), 935 rear suspension, Charlie Bars
Brembo 4-piston 930 brakes and two-piece rotors (barely clear 15" wheels)
All Carbon body panels

Makes for a fantastically involving car to drive on road and track - can be driven at huge slip angles with ease.

SamFromTX

Not likely for the fronts but probably so for the rears. The car understeers at the limit no question so the fronts will be gone by about 4-5 days. Trouble is, at 4-5 days, there is still (and I'm guessing) another two days worth of tread in the rears (my day is 2 hrs over 4 sessions of very hard driving). This time, with the new set, I replaced the fronts after 3 1/2 track days hoping to extend the life of the rears. The car didn't necessarily oversteer with fresh fronts and old rears, it actually handled better.
If you are willing to sacrifice a fraction of a second (I am obsessed with lap times) on a short course and let it fully grip when it slightly understeers, I suspect all fours would do 6 days indeed. Also possible different tracks wear tires differently.

SamFromTX

Awesomeness!

hf1

What a beauty!
Thought about leaving the whole body with the carbon look (unpainted)?

Petevb

Not a cheap sport. Speed certainly costs, but for a pure track car either an RS or a Cup is a luxury. When you start counting $ per second, a lightweight formula car starts to get difficult to argue with.
So I've gone through... 6? sets of PSS so far. The 300 treadwear is misleading- at about half life they start to get hard, at which point they are not only snappy but they chunk:


I still agree they are very good for what they are... But after trying the Cup 2, I think it will be difficult to find a great substitute tire for the GT3 or RS, as least for some time. The Cup 2 added a ton of stability on my 1M (not a GT3) vs any other tire I've run on it (PSS, Dunlop Sport Maxx Race, RS-3, PS2...). It doesn't have great turn-in in standard form, slightly more than the PSS but less than many tires, but the stability and grip over bumps is amazing. If I didn't know better I'd think I'd swapped shocks. Damp grip once they are warm is also impressive, better than the PSS. Hydroplaning and cold performance won't compare, but otherwise... Raw drip might not be stunning compared to a Trofeo R, but I suspect the car GT3 is largely tuned around the Cup 2, and it's so different than most that an improvement could prove tricky.

GrantG

Thanks, I bought the car already finished, so it was out of my control. The rear quarters and roof are still steel (part of unibody) so the builder wanted a way to transition gracefully (hence the partially painted carbon doors).

Mine only has carbon removable panels (front bumper/splitter, fenders, doors, hood, rear bumper, fiberglass deck lid/ducktail). Pete's has more Carbon than mine (surgery to the unibody).

SamFromTX

I agree with your conclusion about the usefulness to PSS after several track days. I had issues with chunking and grip as well (C4S and TTS), when I had what appeared to be a bit of tread left. Have you compared the Trofeo-R to the PSC2 on your 1M? Many people say the Trofeo R is a grippier tire and I am aware it has a lower tread rating but do you know if it is indeed a faster tire? If I can get 1-2 extra secs out of them in a sub 2 mile course, it would be a no brainer for me. Why would an improvement in grip be tricky? Interested in your thoughts.

Macca

Grant. Thats a seriously modified longhood track car with some sizeable investment! I could see how you would be quicker than me on the track in the 993 even with same driver.

However, just a quick point to make - your car is a pretty uncompromised track car.

Both my 993 and GT3 "track cars" have air con, stereo and creature comforts good for touring (my wife and I took the 993 for 4000 miles of touring and track days in March with 3000 of those road miles with 14 days luggage). We toured 2000 mile sin Europe in the 991 GT3 with heated buckets during winter and it was even more comfortable than our 993.

You mentioned that the cost of ownership of the new 991 GT3/RS for track work might be a road block for you - but Im not sure we are comparing apples with apples here - they are mostly road cars good for the weekend track - not the other way around . Just a thought to balance the argument.

Anyway thats one hell of a oldtimer, and like my 993 Im sure it probably owes you by now what a new GT3 would LOL!


Pete. Thanks for the data points on the MPSS. Thats very interesting information. I guess I will find out myself how they go in regards the 991 GT3 soon enough. I run -2.0 negative camber on the front so maybe that will help hold off the chunking for a little while. Unfortunately due to taxes and freight by the time the MPSC2 get to NZ from Tirerack they are about twice the price of the MPSS landed. The 991 GT3 has quite a different chassis from the 1M so it will be interesting how they wear. Going a bit hard is ok in summer I guess but what I read is I shouldnt expect any increase in life over the MPSC2 in similar use. A little less grip and maybe some compound changes at half time...

Sam. Your experience is probably teh most relevant here so I will go with what you say. I have 4600km (3000 miles) on my MPSC2 but very veried usage form Euro winter, to one cold session on the track, a bit of DD and one hard road raid (200 miles). Looking at them Id say they will be good for 1000 miles more touring to our Spring track tour (say 3 more track days).

One thing to note. IN NZ we run shorter session than you do. 15 mins typically (9 -10 laps). In NA you seem to all run 20-30 min sessions. This must put quite a few heat cysles through a tyre especially in summer so may aid also to quicker wearing of those fronts, once they start to melt Im sure they will wear quicker.

One thing is for sure the MPSC2 will take some beating as an "every something" tyre...

GrantG

True, but I need to drive to the track (no room for truck or trailer). Cars like my 73, a Caterham, Ariel Atom, BAC Mono, Lotus Exige V6, or Radical RXC are road-legal options that have much lower running costs than new RS. But you can't get Euro delivery on those