Motec upgrade
10-14-2006, 06:42 PM
#166
Nordschleife Master
Bill,
The diagnostics capability in the ECU is comprehensive and all that is required is a computer (laptop preferred) with a serial or USB port and a MoTeC M48 communications cable.
Here are 3 screens that show the diagnostics functions that are available in the M48. The newer family of ECUs M400, 600, 800, 880 have windows based software and a significantly more detailed status and diagnostic routine. However, I have found this to be simple and sufficient to track down any issues. All of the sensors are factory Porsche except one which is a GM MAP sensor so they are built to withstand a production environment.
Screen 1 - View screen which allows you to see every value for each sensor as well as some computed values such as injector pulse width and duty cycle for example
Screen 2 - Diagnostic screen which shows status and errors
Screen 3 - Individual ignition, injector, and auxilliary tests available to help trace issues.
The diagnostics capability in the ECU is comprehensive and all that is required is a computer (laptop preferred) with a serial or USB port and a MoTeC M48 communications cable.
Here are 3 screens that show the diagnostics functions that are available in the M48. The newer family of ECUs M400, 600, 800, 880 have windows based software and a significantly more detailed status and diagnostic routine. However, I have found this to be simple and sufficient to track down any issues. All of the sensors are factory Porsche except one which is a GM MAP sensor so they are built to withstand a production environment.
Screen 1 - View screen which allows you to see every value for each sensor as well as some computed values such as injector pulse width and duty cycle for example
Screen 2 - Diagnostic screen which shows status and errors
Screen 3 - Individual ignition, injector, and auxilliary tests available to help trace issues.
10-14-2006, 07:02 PM
#167
Nordschleife Master
Noah,
To be fair, there was more our conversation. The MoTeC "kit" is not designed to be a plug and play kit per se. Yes, the installation is simple compared to running an entire wire harness from scratch, but those that would invest in an aftermarket ECU (or live remmaped Motronics) are those that are looking for max performance from their given engine combination. Since there are so many different engine combinations, the mapping will vary from slightly to greatly from a base map depending on the engine combination in order to acheive that maximum performance. A default map will start the car and it will be very drivable, however it would not be optimized for that person's individual engine until mapping was complete which means dyno and road verification. Your engine would have been the first US engine and our fuel differs from the UK which is why I said it would need to be tuned and I would want to ensure cold start and other parameters were correct before releasing it back to the customer. I was being thorough as any professional would be. I think that any retuning whether MoTeC or Motronics would require the same tuning procedure, particularly if the engine's VE% has changed greatly from stock as yours would have with cams, head, and exhaust work.
To be fair, there was more our conversation. The MoTeC "kit" is not designed to be a plug and play kit per se. Yes, the installation is simple compared to running an entire wire harness from scratch, but those that would invest in an aftermarket ECU (or live remmaped Motronics) are those that are looking for max performance from their given engine combination. Since there are so many different engine combinations, the mapping will vary from slightly to greatly from a base map depending on the engine combination in order to acheive that maximum performance. A default map will start the car and it will be very drivable, however it would not be optimized for that person's individual engine until mapping was complete which means dyno and road verification. Your engine would have been the first US engine and our fuel differs from the UK which is why I said it would need to be tuned and I would want to ensure cold start and other parameters were correct before releasing it back to the customer. I was being thorough as any professional would be. I think that any retuning whether MoTeC or Motronics would require the same tuning procedure, particularly if the engine's VE% has changed greatly from stock as yours would have with cams, head, and exhaust work.
10-15-2006, 05:23 AM
#168
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Originally Posted by SimonExtreme
Loren
If all there is to gain is 4 %, you might be right. However, Colin achieves a lot more power than that, combined with other mods. If you tried running the car with those other mods and Motronic DME, you would have more than a few problems. I have found somebody who probably could custom map my DME for the mods I want but I have no knowledge at all what power levels I will get and the person doing the work would be about 5000 miles away.
I just cannot work out what your problem really is. You keep knocking Motec and distorting the figures. Colin has provided a tuning package that includes Motec and gives a certain power for a given price. Most people look at the performance of that package, not some interim figures he gave to show the development of the package. When challenged, you consistantly fail to put forward an alternative that features the Motronic DME.
However, a little research (isn't the net wonderful) suggests some reasons for your behavior. There are accusations on other forums, that you have never denied, that suggest a motive. Is it true that you used to produce performance chips that at least one well known tuning shop stopped using due to the fact they made no difference to performance? Is it true that not only do you attack Motec but you also attack companies that produce performance chips because you were unable to do it yourself? Please can you explain why if these accusations are not true, you have refused to deny them?
I can only assume that in the light of what I have read on other forums, you attack anybody who doesn't stick top standard because you are unable to do anything more than standard yourself.
Please do not misunderstand me. I am only repeating rumours, accusations and inuendo that you have steadfastly refused to deny on other forums. Maybe you can set the record straight on this forum with some simple "yes or no" answers.
1. Have you ever sold or produced what are termed "performance chips" for Motronic DME? Yes or No
2. Have any well known tuning shops stopped buying these chips from you because they made no difference and did not meet their claims? Yes or No
3. Do you still make "non standard" chips for the Motronics DME? Yes or No
4. Have you ever produced a sucessful tuning package based on the Motronics DME? Yes or No
5. Do you know of any successful tuning packages based on the Motronics DME? Yes no and if yes, please provide details of power gains and price.
I hope that all the rumours and comments on other forums are wrong and that you can use this forum to set the record right because if not, it does suggest a bad motive for your attitude.
If all there is to gain is 4 %, you might be right. However, Colin achieves a lot more power than that, combined with other mods. If you tried running the car with those other mods and Motronic DME, you would have more than a few problems. I have found somebody who probably could custom map my DME for the mods I want but I have no knowledge at all what power levels I will get and the person doing the work would be about 5000 miles away.
I just cannot work out what your problem really is. You keep knocking Motec and distorting the figures. Colin has provided a tuning package that includes Motec and gives a certain power for a given price. Most people look at the performance of that package, not some interim figures he gave to show the development of the package. When challenged, you consistantly fail to put forward an alternative that features the Motronic DME.
However, a little research (isn't the net wonderful) suggests some reasons for your behavior. There are accusations on other forums, that you have never denied, that suggest a motive. Is it true that you used to produce performance chips that at least one well known tuning shop stopped using due to the fact they made no difference to performance? Is it true that not only do you attack Motec but you also attack companies that produce performance chips because you were unable to do it yourself? Please can you explain why if these accusations are not true, you have refused to deny them?
I can only assume that in the light of what I have read on other forums, you attack anybody who doesn't stick top standard because you are unable to do anything more than standard yourself.
Please do not misunderstand me. I am only repeating rumours, accusations and inuendo that you have steadfastly refused to deny on other forums. Maybe you can set the record straight on this forum with some simple "yes or no" answers.
1. Have you ever sold or produced what are termed "performance chips" for Motronic DME? Yes or No
2. Have any well known tuning shops stopped buying these chips from you because they made no difference and did not meet their claims? Yes or No
3. Do you still make "non standard" chips for the Motronics DME? Yes or No
4. Have you ever produced a sucessful tuning package based on the Motronics DME? Yes or No
5. Do you know of any successful tuning packages based on the Motronics DME? Yes no and if yes, please provide details of power gains and price.
I hope that all the rumours and comments on other forums are wrong and that you can use this forum to set the record right because if not, it does suggest a bad motive for your attitude.
You have been a 964 owner for how long? Let me tell you that becoming the self appointed attack dog for a particular Tuning company be they a Rennlist sponsor or not does the company no good and reduces your credibility to zero simply based on your real life Porsche experience. Have you ever owned a stock standard Porsche and spent huge amounts of money to gain 50hp? Attacking the messenger like you have, because you cannot use your own experience to counter the message is the lowest form of internet forum usage.
However I can provide you some details of Loren's attitude which dates back well into the 1990s. I have known Loren for many years and in this time we have clashed on more than one occassion. Loren can be caustic as I have been accused of many times on this forum and other, but he is MOTIVATED by one main theme that he and I share. He asks the questions that not only must be asked, but must be answered to provide a full account of information to any potential customer on these forums to allow them to make a proper and informed decision. Loren like myself has spent an inordinate amount of time trying to help out 911 owners whose dreams of more engine power have turned into nightmares, both financial and emotional.
In his time Loren the same as myself has made enemies in the Porsche Tuning world. Some people use Internet attack dogs to do their dirty work try and discredit their critics. Why? Because critics such as Loren ask and write the questions that he feels need to be asked. I have asked the exact same questions on these forums and others many times dating back to the late 1990s. Nowadays I prefer not to get involved in these things because I have learned that a fool and his money are easily parted. If anyone believes the hype and won't read the buyers guide then that is their problem.
Mind you in this thread alone Loren has exposed some areas that have not been addressed yet and just for fun I shall add some more.
There are two areas of Porsche tuning. One is for the race track and one is for the road. I am only concerned with tuning packages sold to Porsche owners who only use their cars on the road and not in any competitive events.
Loren has already addressed issues such as Emissions, maintenance, diagnosis etc., but I will add.
What are the parameters of acceptance from this particular tuning company and its distributors when it comes to what engines are accepted for tuning and those that are not? I see no evidence presented of such a selection process. Would this company attempt to install their system on a M64/01 engine with say 160,000km (100,000miles) which may be down 25hp already siimply due to engine wear?
Does this company do a reliable engine power output check before modification and tell thw owner his or her car is not suitable for such an installation unless additional work is carried out?
If the customer balks at the additional cost is this a good customer or a bad customer?
Now my favourite has nothing to do with the beginning, but afterwards. The catch word is RELIABILTY. How do these systems work under variable conditions over a period of time? Where is the data from customers two years down the track? How did they work on lower octane fuels? What do you do when you pull into a garage that does not sell high octane fuel? How is engine life affected?
How is reasale value affected for the normal road car market? I could go on and on.
I had a tuned 964 and its performance varied dramatically depending upon the variables I encounted. So where are the long term road only users of this system and what has been their experience?
It is quite possible that 9M have answers for all these questions and can possibly pre-empt many more. My personal concern is that this system may be seen as suitable for the daily driver and I am well not convinced of that.
In the end Simon it comes down to worldly experience that is partly gained by making mistakes. My aim in this Porsche world has always been to help owners save money not try and spend it for them. Loren's is very similar. If you wish to challenge me and my experience next please fell free to have a go.
Ciao,
Adrian.
PS: As regard to these other forums and people you mention in your post, you might want to go back ask them if they have had any unhappy customers. The old Biblical saying "Let the person who has not sinned cast the first stone" applies.
10-15-2006, 06:05 AM
#169
Burning Brakes
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Originally Posted by Adrian
Simon,
You have been a 964 owner for how long? Let me tell you that becoming the self appointed attack dog for a particular Tuning company be they a Rennlist sponsor or not does the company no good and reduces your credibility to zero simply based on your real life Porsche experience. Have you ever owned a stock standard Porsche and spent huge amounts of money to gain 50hp? Attacking the messenger like you have, because you cannot use your own experience to counter the message is the lowest form of internet forum usage.
You have been a 964 owner for how long? Let me tell you that becoming the self appointed attack dog for a particular Tuning company be they a Rennlist sponsor or not does the company no good and reduces your credibility to zero simply based on your real life Porsche experience. Have you ever owned a stock standard Porsche and spent huge amounts of money to gain 50hp? Attacking the messenger like you have, because you cannot use your own experience to counter the message is the lowest form of internet forum usage.
You have totally missed the point. However, to humour you I have owned a 964RS for 2 years, I have owned, performance cars for, 27 years, I used to own 50% of a car restoration company and I used to make components for McLaren in the early 1980's. I have also raced both single seater and saloons (not necessarily very well
) and built my own race cars. I have also mapped my own engines using mappable ECU's.Secondly, as you would see if you read other stuff, I am not defending any tuning company but battling against what I see as any misinformation from any source. In the case of Loren, he is destorting a message that I believe is doing a great diservice to the community. It's not about 9M or Geoffery at all.
You ask me why I appoint myself as "attcak dog" for them but I woudl say, right back at you, what gives Loren the right to be exactly the reverse. I have no agenda, however if he does it should be outed.
In trying to understand different viewpoints, I woudl check out the credibility of people presenting them. So, to understand loren's viewpoint, I did some searching. I have read accusations on other forums that Loren has refused to answer or, just as tellingly, not denied. Those accusations discredit his knowledge and suggest motive. Now, maybe I am being too harsh, but if there was evidence on the net that Colin, Geoffery or any other tuner was publishing wrong information, I would go after them as well. In fact, I have a proven track record of that whereby on one car club forum, I found the evidence of a tuner fabricating results and posting untrue information so as to gain business and that tuner ended up being banned.
I am sorry but when people follow an agenda, I want to know why. Loren seems to have a track record on other forums of being the "attack dog" for Motronnics DME (standard Format) and when challenged about his "agenda" he runs away. If the accusations made against him are untrue, why has he not countered them? I actually hope the accusations printed elsewhere are untrue, but the other problem I have is that Loren makes his living rebuilding STANDARD Motronics DME. If there is an alternative and he is attacking that, unfairly, does it m,atter if he is a sponsor or not. surely it should be exposed?
If, however, the accusations on the other forums are wrong, by telling everybody on this forum it would strengthen Loren's position by showing his integrity.
Now, if you will excuse me, I will post another item so you can accuse me of being Motec's attack dog
10-15-2006, 06:38 AM
#170
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Originally Posted by SimonExtreme
Adrian
You have totally missed the point. However, to humour you I have owned a 964RS for 2 years, I have owned, performance cars for, 27 years, I used to own 50% of a car restoration company and I used to make components for McLaren in the early 1980's. I have also raced both single seater and saloons (not necessarily very well) and built my own race cars. I have also mapped my own engines using mappable ECU's.
Secondly, as you would see if you read other stuff, I am not defending any tuning company but battling against what I see as any misinformation from any source. In the case of Loren, he is destorting a message that I believe is doing a great diservice to the community. It's not about 9M or Geoffery at all.
You ask me why I appoint myself as "attcak dog" for them but I woudl say, right back at you, what gives Loren the right to be exactly the reverse. I have no agenda, however if he does it should be outed.
In trying to understand different viewpoints, I woudl check out the credibility of people presenting them. So, to understand loren's viewpoint, I did some searching. I have read accusations on other forums that Loren has refused to answer or, just as tellingly, not denied. Those accusations discredit his knowledge and suggest motive. Now, maybe I am being too harsh, but if there was evidence on the net that Colin, Geoffery or any other tuner was publishing wrong information, I would go after them as well. In fact, I have a proven track record of that whereby on one car club forum, I found the evidence of a tuner fabricating results and posting untrue information so as to gain business and that tuner ended up being banned.
I am sorry but when people follow an agenda, I want to know why. Loren seems to have a track record on other forums of being the "attack dog" for Motronnics DME (standard Format) and when challenged about his "agenda" he runs away. If the accusations made against him are untrue, why has he not countered them? I actually hope the accusations printed elsewhere are untrue, but the other problem I have is that Loren makes his living rebuilding STANDARD Motronics DME. If there is an alternative and he is attacking that, unfairly, does it m,atter if he is a sponsor or not. surely it should be exposed?
If, however, the accusations on the other forums are wrong, by telling everybody on this forum it would strengthen Loren's position by showing his integrity.
Now, if you will excuse me, I will post another item so you can accuse me of being Motec's attack dog
You have totally missed the point. However, to humour you I have owned a 964RS for 2 years, I have owned, performance cars for, 27 years, I used to own 50% of a car restoration company and I used to make components for McLaren in the early 1980's. I have also raced both single seater and saloons (not necessarily very well
) and built my own race cars. I have also mapped my own engines using mappable ECU's.Secondly, as you would see if you read other stuff, I am not defending any tuning company but battling against what I see as any misinformation from any source. In the case of Loren, he is destorting a message that I believe is doing a great diservice to the community. It's not about 9M or Geoffery at all.
You ask me why I appoint myself as "attcak dog" for them but I woudl say, right back at you, what gives Loren the right to be exactly the reverse. I have no agenda, however if he does it should be outed.
In trying to understand different viewpoints, I woudl check out the credibility of people presenting them. So, to understand loren's viewpoint, I did some searching. I have read accusations on other forums that Loren has refused to answer or, just as tellingly, not denied. Those accusations discredit his knowledge and suggest motive. Now, maybe I am being too harsh, but if there was evidence on the net that Colin, Geoffery or any other tuner was publishing wrong information, I would go after them as well. In fact, I have a proven track record of that whereby on one car club forum, I found the evidence of a tuner fabricating results and posting untrue information so as to gain business and that tuner ended up being banned.
I am sorry but when people follow an agenda, I want to know why. Loren seems to have a track record on other forums of being the "attack dog" for Motronnics DME (standard Format) and when challenged about his "agenda" he runs away. If the accusations made against him are untrue, why has he not countered them? I actually hope the accusations printed elsewhere are untrue, but the other problem I have is that Loren makes his living rebuilding STANDARD Motronics DME. If there is an alternative and he is attacking that, unfairly, does it m,atter if he is a sponsor or not. surely it should be exposed?
If, however, the accusations on the other forums are wrong, by telling everybody on this forum it would strengthen Loren's position by showing his integrity.
Now, if you will excuse me, I will post another item so you can accuse me of being Motec's attack dog
Thanks for the laugh I really needed that. It's very dull and grey outside today. I haven't missed any point. You by your own admission have appointed yourself the Chief Superintendant of the Tuning Police.
I also believe you purchased your 964 RS already seriously modified. Please correct this if this is wrong.
I have been driving performance cars myself for over 30 years, but I learned real quick that Porsche are not like other performance cars. Somebody tried to teach me how to remapp using a dyno and modern technology. This work is an art form which requires serious natural talent which I do not possess.
The good engine mappers of today remind me of the old Rolls Royce Merlin engine tuners of old that used to lie on top of the engine whilst it was running and listen and then say what had to be done to tune the engine to perfection.
I admit my agenda is to try and help people make an informed decision on how to spend their money. Loren has a similar agenda and he believes as I do that the Porsche/Bosch Motronics systems used in the 964/993/996 and 997 are more than capable of providing that extra zing needed for road use. The Motec system and TAGTronics before them are much more suited to racing applications than for normal road users.
When moving such a business into the USA one should also expect the local boys to protect their turf just as the UK tuners have in the past protected their turf against many of the European based tuners. On this very forum by the way of which you have been a user since March 2006.
I am not going to argue this out with you. I will leave the final decisions to those who wish to part with their money whether they go with Motec or not. However I will defend to the death the right of anyone to ask questions in whatever tone they wish if the end result is to provide sufficient information to allow Porsche owners from Backpool in England to San Diego in California make an informed decision.
Your argument against Loren not answering his critics is easily answered. It's a waste of time trying to defend yourself on the internet. Everyone can be accused of having an agenda yourself included.
One defends oneself by producing the goods and if you go to Southern California you will find that Loren (who has his own Porsche based website) is well respected among the Porsche, BMW and Mercedes owning communities, most of whom do not frequent internet forums. Yes Loren has his way, as I do and you do. It is often very hard to try and get your point across using the written word. Even those who have some skill in this area know that no matter what one writes, two people reading what you have written can come up with three different opinions.
By the way I have never seen Loren promoting any other tuning company except Andial. I only promote two tuning companies myself and neither are sponsors of Rennlist so I will not mention them directly.
Good luck writing on other forums and I hope you make some more Tuner arrests today.
Ciao,
Adrian.
PS: I have read this thread a number of times and whilst I see many questions asked and not answered directly from all sides, I see no evidence of your claimed misinformation. There is nowhere enough information provided from any side to class anything as misinformation. This is a normal internet type discussion which leads nowhere because of the unanswered questions. Most of the discussion is padded with irrelevance as is also usual on the internet.
10-15-2006, 07:00 AM
#171
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I am a bit suprised at Colin and Geoffery. I think they are doing a great diservice to Porsche tuning by not pointing out a few things to do with Motec and mappable ECU's in general. Maybe they just want to protect their won business
I personally think that there are 2 issues. The first of these is the modifications that Colin makes to stock cars to get power. It has been shown that when coupled with a correctly mapped ECU, there are significant pwoer gains to be made.
We have discussed, at length, how much difference the Motec actually makes and I believe that the conclusion was that the Motec itslef didn't make the difference but gave an easy to use ECU that allowed the power to be produced.
I woudl go one stage further. In rallying, there are various ECU's that are popular and in particular, with Mitsubishi Evo's Motec and Gems are the systems of choice. I have never seen any evidence to suggest that one is better than another in terms of actual power gain potential, although each has their own features. In fact, one well known US tuner used DTA to good effect.
So, point 1 is that any decent mappable ECU should unlock the similar power using Colin's other mods.
Point 2 is about who could do this. I have been making enquiries and there are 3 Porsche Motec specialists listed on Motec's website in the USA and Geoffery isn't one of them. Don't misunderstand me. This is not a suggestion that Geoffery isn't a Porsche specialist or isn't a Motec Dealer. It is just to show that there are others.
Which leads to the key point. I would bet that given all the non-ecu related mods as Colin makes and the same sensors, any of these dealers should be able to map to within an acceptable level of power as each other. If I weren't in the UK, I would be asking Colin to sell me all the other mods and be getting a local Motec dealer to wire in the Motec and map it. I would expect to get pretty much the same results as Colin gets. However, for business reasons, Colin might decide not to sell those bits like that, but that is his right.
Further, if the UK is anything to go by, there are probably 10 times as many people capable of mapping Motec as there are dealers. In fact, three of the best Evo mappers in the world are currently based in the UK and they do not appear on Motec's website as dealers, because they aren't.
On top of that, most decent mappers can, if they had to, map most decent mappable ECU's. Learning the subtelty of each system does take time, but they would know how the basics work and certainly enough provide support for somebody with a particular system. This should mean that there are literally 100's of people in the USA capable of supporting Motec and there is no need to have a Motec specialist service a car.
I am probably getting Colin to fit his kit to my car, powered by Motec and then I am taking the car to Australia where others will service it and support me if things go wrong. Either that is being stupid or the support isn't an issue and, while some of you might think differently, I am not stupid (pig headed, PITA, etc maybe............)
I believe that it hasn't been made clear enough the following
1. There are viable alternatives to Motec, even for Porsches.
2. There are lots of people out there who can support Motec and if Colin and Geoffery don't want to publicise that, it will be their loss and it is certainly a loss to the forum.
3. Motec/Gem/Autronics etc Mappable ECU's offer significant advantages over Motronics in terms of ease of use.
4. There really aren't support issues
Finally and some of you will need to sit down for this "revelation", there are very good alternatives to the 9M package being offered in the US for 964's. There si one feature of these alternatives, and that is they use mappable ecu's! If I lived in the US, I don't know which I would use. So, if some of you want to push the tuning up beyond a chip and exhaust, I would be doing my homework.
I have done mine and for me, the choices have become very binary - leave the car at the present state of tune or get Colin to take it to the next level. If I lived in the US, there would be at least one more choice for me. In addition, there are alternatives using Motronics which might be viable in the US but aren't over here. And I haven't even spoken to the specialist Motec people listed on the Motec website.
However, before going to anybody, do what I have done and look at the "proof" and do your research. Make up your mind based on what you find out, not on other people's views (including mine!).
I personally think that there are 2 issues. The first of these is the modifications that Colin makes to stock cars to get power. It has been shown that when coupled with a correctly mapped ECU, there are significant pwoer gains to be made.
We have discussed, at length, how much difference the Motec actually makes and I believe that the conclusion was that the Motec itslef didn't make the difference but gave an easy to use ECU that allowed the power to be produced.
I woudl go one stage further. In rallying, there are various ECU's that are popular and in particular, with Mitsubishi Evo's Motec and Gems are the systems of choice. I have never seen any evidence to suggest that one is better than another in terms of actual power gain potential, although each has their own features. In fact, one well known US tuner used DTA to good effect.
So, point 1 is that any decent mappable ECU should unlock the similar power using Colin's other mods.
Point 2 is about who could do this. I have been making enquiries and there are 3 Porsche Motec specialists listed on Motec's website in the USA and Geoffery isn't one of them. Don't misunderstand me. This is not a suggestion that Geoffery isn't a Porsche specialist or isn't a Motec Dealer. It is just to show that there are others.
Which leads to the key point. I would bet that given all the non-ecu related mods as Colin makes and the same sensors, any of these dealers should be able to map to within an acceptable level of power as each other. If I weren't in the UK, I would be asking Colin to sell me all the other mods and be getting a local Motec dealer to wire in the Motec and map it. I would expect to get pretty much the same results as Colin gets. However, for business reasons, Colin might decide not to sell those bits like that, but that is his right.
Further, if the UK is anything to go by, there are probably 10 times as many people capable of mapping Motec as there are dealers. In fact, three of the best Evo mappers in the world are currently based in the UK and they do not appear on Motec's website as dealers, because they aren't.
On top of that, most decent mappers can, if they had to, map most decent mappable ECU's. Learning the subtelty of each system does take time, but they would know how the basics work and certainly enough provide support for somebody with a particular system. This should mean that there are literally 100's of people in the USA capable of supporting Motec and there is no need to have a Motec specialist service a car.
I am probably getting Colin to fit his kit to my car, powered by Motec and then I am taking the car to Australia where others will service it and support me if things go wrong. Either that is being stupid or the support isn't an issue and, while some of you might think differently, I am not stupid (pig headed, PITA, etc maybe............
)I believe that it hasn't been made clear enough the following
1. There are viable alternatives to Motec, even for Porsches.
2. There are lots of people out there who can support Motec and if Colin and Geoffery don't want to publicise that, it will be their loss and it is certainly a loss to the forum.
3. Motec/Gem/Autronics etc Mappable ECU's offer significant advantages over Motronics in terms of ease of use.
4. There really aren't support issues
Finally and some of you will need to sit down for this "revelation", there are very good alternatives to the 9M package being offered in the US for 964's. There si one feature of these alternatives, and that is they use mappable ecu's! If I lived in the US, I don't know which I would use. So, if some of you want to push the tuning up beyond a chip and exhaust, I would be doing my homework.
I have done mine and for me, the choices have become very binary - leave the car at the present state of tune or get Colin to take it to the next level. If I lived in the US, there would be at least one more choice for me. In addition, there are alternatives using Motronics which might be viable in the US but aren't over here. And I haven't even spoken to the specialist Motec people listed on the Motec website.
However, before going to anybody, do what I have done and look at the "proof" and do your research. Make up your mind based on what you find out, not on other people's views (including mine!).
10-15-2006, 07:21 AM
#172
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Originally Posted by Adrian
.................................................... and he believes as I do that the Porsche/Bosch Motronics systems used in the 964/993/996 and 997 are more than capable of providing that extra zing needed for road use.
I actually spent last night reading the tuning section of your book so I certainly know your viewpoint, or at least what it was when you wrote the book. So, let me ask you this.
As you say, I bought my car already tuned to what many say is the maximum for conventional Motronics. Colin has stated (and it wasn't his work) that he hasn't seen a "stock" Motronics car produce more power. However, for both road and track use, I believe that the car is still under powered compared with the rest of it's abilities. That is what I have been researching for 2 years. The reason I haven't done anything is that 1. Porsches are different and 2. I have spent the last 10 years or so playing with turbos. So, where should I go from here? Is the problem that I want too much power (in more ways than 1
) or have I missed something about Motronics?
The Motec system and TAGTronics before them are much more suited to racing applications than for normal road users.
10-15-2006, 07:54 AM
#173
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I don't see Loren having tried to lure any customers, nor try to misinform the readers, and I certainly have not seen him attack the other "tuners". You have no right to attack Loren based on what you read elsewhere, or based on whatever professional failures, if any, he had in his past (or present).
Just to be clear I don't even know what Loren does nor do I want to check.
Your post against Loren is certainly not welcome, and it is derogatory, and based on things you read elsewhere.....and they do not portray what Loren has been doing on this forum, which is arguing for Motronic and against Motec, for whatever reason he finds appropriate, and on technical grounds. He could be right or wrong, that is not the point.
Once these posts get personal is when the forum itself, not the person, is being attacked. Geoffrey thinks I have been mistreated in my childhood because I challenge him or 9M or other tuners, I don't think it is anyone's business if I was, but if I was in his shoes I would bury myself in shame, as this would be a tragedy rather than something funny to mention.
And these things don't just "slip" and you press a delete button and it's gone, they show a personality trait. A wise man would have apologized.
Maybe we should start washing dirty laundry about every tuner, whether sponsor or not, openly on the forum? I am sure I can post more than one story that readers would be very interested in reading about. What is the use, prevent Rennlisters from doing business with them? Not my problem, only when the "tuner" posts misinformation here do I challenge them, this is what the forum is about.
Some of your posts Simon are really good, especially this last one, I just wish you never posted that one against Loren.
I applaud and thank Adrian's intervention and hopefully we start getting our senses back about the fine line between personal attacks and technical debates.
Just to be clear I don't even know what Loren does nor do I want to check.
Your post against Loren is certainly not welcome, and it is derogatory, and based on things you read elsewhere.....and they do not portray what Loren has been doing on this forum, which is arguing for Motronic and against Motec, for whatever reason he finds appropriate, and on technical grounds. He could be right or wrong, that is not the point.
Once these posts get personal is when the forum itself, not the person, is being attacked. Geoffrey thinks I have been mistreated in my childhood because I challenge him or 9M or other tuners, I don't think it is anyone's business if I was, but if I was in his shoes I would bury myself in shame, as this would be a tragedy rather than something funny to mention.
And these things don't just "slip" and you press a delete button and it's gone, they show a personality trait. A wise man would have apologized.
Maybe we should start washing dirty laundry about every tuner, whether sponsor or not, openly on the forum? I am sure I can post more than one story that readers would be very interested in reading about. What is the use, prevent Rennlisters from doing business with them? Not my problem, only when the "tuner" posts misinformation here do I challenge them, this is what the forum is about.
Some of your posts Simon are really good, especially this last one, I just wish you never posted that one against Loren.
I applaud and thank Adrian's intervention and hopefully we start getting our senses back about the fine line between personal attacks and technical debates.
Last edited by Jean; 10-15-2006 at 08:16 AM.
10-15-2006, 07:55 AM
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Simon,
I regard this conversation as something that potential engine tuning customers on this forum and others should see. I do not regard this as a slanging match either. I have a vested interest in helping people and to do this before they have a disaster and ask for help. I only entered this conversation because you started to attack the messenger and not the message in place of the person who should be doing this and that is Colin.
What do I base my comments on? Many many years of Porsche ownership, personal tuning experimentation and the thousands of E-mails requesting help from Porsche owners around the world who have run into serious problems down the track with their verious engine modifications and tuning packages from many different sources. Actually helping people trying to interface some of these systems into the cars when abandoned by the supplier. I do not infer that 9M has ever done this by the way. Abandonment of customers usually occurs when the workload exceeds company capabilities.
You do not know any Porsche 964/993/996 owner who has used Motec, Gems or any other aftermarket engine management system fitted to their "true only daily driver" for 5 years and nor do I. Christer is the only 964 owner I know who could get close to providing real time reliability data to this forum. That is why it is up to the Tuners to present this information to their potential customers and why I ask these kind of questions. However the key question for me and to people like Loren is the cost of ownership over a period of time. As the engine ages what happens then? Will the modifications accelerate the aging and mechancial wear process? Will the modified car be legal? The list goes on.
Your experience in the UK is totally irrelevant to what I need here in Switzerland or to potential customers elsewhere in the world. Our fuels are different, our laws are different, our needs are different and in many cases our cars are different. What you can do in the UK cannot be legally done in many other places in the world.
This is something that all Tuning companies including the ones I know very well still struggle with today. They CANNOT offer a product which works and is legal on all continents and in some cases are legal in 49 US states, but not in California.
To answer your first question, I cannot. Your needs and perceptions are really your problem. I can only say this. I have driven some of the most powerful road cars known to man. I have written about them in books and magazines and I came to a simple conclusion. If you want the most powerful cars you buy them, you cannot make something else get anywhere close because what you pick up on the roundabouts you lose on the swings.
However with that said, if you want the extreme example of the differences try driving a Porsche GT-1 racing car with its TAG engine management and then the GT-1 road version with its Motronics engine management. Both are mongrels to drive, but one is seriously worse than the other.
Ciao,
Adrian.
I regard this conversation as something that potential engine tuning customers on this forum and others should see. I do not regard this as a slanging match either. I have a vested interest in helping people and to do this before they have a disaster and ask for help. I only entered this conversation because you started to attack the messenger and not the message in place of the person who should be doing this and that is Colin.
What do I base my comments on? Many many years of Porsche ownership, personal tuning experimentation and the thousands of E-mails requesting help from Porsche owners around the world who have run into serious problems down the track with their verious engine modifications and tuning packages from many different sources. Actually helping people trying to interface some of these systems into the cars when abandoned by the supplier. I do not infer that 9M has ever done this by the way. Abandonment of customers usually occurs when the workload exceeds company capabilities.
You do not know any Porsche 964/993/996 owner who has used Motec, Gems or any other aftermarket engine management system fitted to their "true only daily driver" for 5 years and nor do I. Christer is the only 964 owner I know who could get close to providing real time reliability data to this forum. That is why it is up to the Tuners to present this information to their potential customers and why I ask these kind of questions. However the key question for me and to people like Loren is the cost of ownership over a period of time. As the engine ages what happens then? Will the modifications accelerate the aging and mechancial wear process? Will the modified car be legal? The list goes on.
Your experience in the UK is totally irrelevant to what I need here in Switzerland or to potential customers elsewhere in the world. Our fuels are different, our laws are different, our needs are different and in many cases our cars are different. What you can do in the UK cannot be legally done in many other places in the world.
This is something that all Tuning companies including the ones I know very well still struggle with today. They CANNOT offer a product which works and is legal on all continents and in some cases are legal in 49 US states, but not in California.
To answer your first question, I cannot. Your needs and perceptions are really your problem. I can only say this. I have driven some of the most powerful road cars known to man. I have written about them in books and magazines and I came to a simple conclusion. If you want the most powerful cars you buy them, you cannot make something else get anywhere close because what you pick up on the roundabouts you lose on the swings.
However with that said, if you want the extreme example of the differences try driving a Porsche GT-1 racing car with its TAG engine management and then the GT-1 road version with its Motronics engine management. Both are mongrels to drive, but one is seriously worse than the other.
Ciao,
Adrian.
10-15-2006, 08:01 AM
#175
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Simon,
Not having seen any Motronic based 964s perform better than a Motec based 964 does not mean they don't exist I guess. These stock 964s with Motec instead of Motronic, do we have any performance numbers from them? It might be interesting to compare, obviously like for like gears and weight..
You might want to contact a few tuners in Europe who used Motronic very succesfully a few years back (they now are more focused on the new 911s), such as TTP, Gunther Mandl (now at Sportec), RS Tuning, Manthey and I am sure there are others before throwing the towel.
Porsche used TAG for their race cars because it was a smaller house that was more flexible for their private race team needs. They are not friendly for street cars, you can ask JJayB on this forum who replaced his with Motronic recently.
All the factory Cup cars come from the factory with Motronic until this day, Motec is only a data acquisition system on board, I guess they do it for a reason. (provided we assume that Porsche Motorsports division have a few smart engineers)...
Not having seen any Motronic based 964s perform better than a Motec based 964 does not mean they don't exist I guess. These stock 964s with Motec instead of Motronic, do we have any performance numbers from them? It might be interesting to compare, obviously like for like gears and weight..
You might want to contact a few tuners in Europe who used Motronic very succesfully a few years back (they now are more focused on the new 911s), such as TTP, Gunther Mandl (now at Sportec), RS Tuning, Manthey and I am sure there are others before throwing the towel.
Porsche used TAG for their race cars because it was a smaller house that was more flexible for their private race team needs. They are not friendly for street cars, you can ask JJayB on this forum who replaced his with Motronic recently.
All the factory Cup cars come from the factory with Motronic until this day, Motec is only a data acquisition system on board, I guess they do it for a reason. (provided we assume that Porsche Motorsports division have a few smart engineers)...
Last edited by Jean; 10-15-2006 at 09:04 AM.
10-15-2006, 08:59 AM
#176
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Not sure I follow this debate: We have established that Colin and/or Geoffrey use Motec in their conversions for their own reasons. Familiarity, ease of tuning, whatever. So, if customers wish to obtain real extra power with Colin or Geoffrey, they have to accept that Motec is part of the package on offer. Clearly there are serious drawbacks such as non-standard, resale value, ease of service, emissions, octane levels etc. We have also established that if the customer wants ultimate power (4 litres, up to 440 hp etc) theirs is the only game in town. The customer has to decide whether he is comfortable with the cost/benefit of Colin's/Geoffrey's work - subject to all the mentioned drawbacks - or simply go elsewhere.
It's difficult to envisage people fitting Motec (just Motec and nothing else) to a completely "standard" car in place of Motronic, due to all the drawbacks mentioned above. LaurenFB's question "show me the advantage of Motec on a like-for-like basis" is impossible to answer in real-life.
It's difficult to envisage people fitting Motec (just Motec and nothing else) to a completely "standard" car in place of Motronic, due to all the drawbacks mentioned above. LaurenFB's question "show me the advantage of Motec on a like-for-like basis" is impossible to answer in real-life.
Last edited by AVoyvoda; 10-15-2006 at 10:11 AM.
10-15-2006, 09:55 AM
#177
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Maybe I have gone too far with what I wrote about loren but his attitude has seriously upset me (if people hadn't noticed!). I believe that he is evasive with his answers and only chooses to quote the bits that supports his arguements. And I want to understand why.
I do believe that Loren knows what he is doing with the Motronics unit and has a very repsectable and reliable business based on that. However, maybe I am a consipracy theorist too much but I always look for people's motives for a particular view or attitude. In my case, I get wound up by what I see as misinformation being posted about cars and tuning in particular, on the net. The majority of people come on to forums like this to try to learn and/or spread the word, as well as to develop fellowship with other owners.
So, when I see somebody deliberately clouding issues, using the wrong data to prove points etc., I wonder as to their motives. Maybe, some like me, it's our own self importance but when people are involved in the motor trade, I tend to look further.
I hope that my rantings don't reflect in any way on Colin, his business or Geoffery. They aren't meant to. All I have ever wanted to do is to confirm (or otherwise) the correctness of data that I have personal knowledge of or endorse tuning methods I have personally experienced. I have ahd no intention of endorsing Colin as such, just mappable ECU's such as Motec, of which I do have extensive experience, although not on Porsches.
I do believe that Loren knows what he is doing with the Motronics unit and has a very repsectable and reliable business based on that. However, maybe I am a consipracy theorist too much but I always look for people's motives for a particular view or attitude. In my case, I get wound up by what I see as misinformation being posted about cars and tuning in particular, on the net. The majority of people come on to forums like this to try to learn and/or spread the word, as well as to develop fellowship with other owners.
So, when I see somebody deliberately clouding issues, using the wrong data to prove points etc., I wonder as to their motives. Maybe, some like me, it's our own self importance
but when people are involved in the motor trade, I tend to look further.I hope that my rantings don't reflect in any way on Colin, his business or Geoffery. They aren't meant to. All I have ever wanted to do is to confirm (or otherwise) the correctness of data that I have personal knowledge of or endorse tuning methods I have personally experienced. I have ahd no intention of endorsing Colin as such, just mappable ECU's such as Motec, of which I do have extensive experience, although not on Porsches.
10-15-2006, 10:06 AM
#178
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Originally Posted by SimonExtreme
Maybe I have gone too far with what I wrote about loren but his attitude has seriously upset me (if people hadn't noticed!). I believe that he is evasive with his answers and only chooses to quote the bits that supports his arguements.
With due respect, this is something we all do. We don't argue using the evidence that supports the others guy.
Not unless you hear little voices in your head and argue among yourselves of course Ciao,
Adrian.
10-15-2006, 10:06 AM
#179
Nordschleife Master
" I have been making enquiries and there are 3 Porsche Motec specialists listed on Motec's website in the USA and Geoffery isn't one of them."
I am one of the 75 or so authorized MoTeC dealers for which I paid for the training and passed the performance test. Further, I work closely with their R&D on new products and my Racecar used some beta software I was testing for them. I am listed on their Dealer website. While I haven't counted them, it was pointed out my Noah that there are about 14 other MoTeC dealers who are Porsche specialists. Please make sure your facts are correct before posting.
Jean, I did not say you were mistreated in childood, recheck my statement. It was deleted because it was written in anger and not what I meant exactly. I have no problems with the questions you ask, it is the fact that you came here, didn't read the entire thread before posting, insinuated that I was not a real tuner, mentioned my name in a post about not being happy to see you etc. This shows your true feelings torwads both Colin and myself. You consistently imply that I am not what I say I am and that is what makes me angry. I have the responsibility to protect my reputation and a man is more than just one statement written when provoked.
I will be the first to say that if tools for live mapping Motronics were available on a wide spread basis, that for most street driven cars, I would recommend that route, EVEN if you gave up a small amount of HP over an aftermarket ECU. The original poster was not asking to compare and contrast MoTeC vs Motronic but rather about MoTeC itself.
I would generally agree with Adrian that aftermarket ECUs have some significant advantages for a race car, but I disagree that they make the cars not drive very well BECAUSE of the ECU. I also to agree that I find more cars that don't run well when converted to an aftermarket ECU, but that is more because the tuner has not taken the time to properly map then engine or has used the wrong tools like a Dynojet 248c chassis dyno rather than an engine dyno or a chassis dyno that acts like an engine dyno in that it can hold the engine to a specific load. I hear "Its a racecar and is driven only at full throttle. My current racecar with a full racing engine, meaning ITBs, 316 seat duration camshafts, factory RSR pistons, race exhaust, lightweight clutch, etc. has no drivability issues and I'll offer to anyone, come see me and drive it to find out yourself. This is a standing offer. The mapping could be better, I have spent only 2 hours on a chassis dyno mapping from scratch, no base map to go from. For instance, there are spots where it runs .85 lambda when I want .88 lambda, but that can be fixed when I have some time to get back to my own project. My point being that it drives very much like a production car with only a few hours invested in engine mapping by someone who is an experienced engine tuner.
I also had a 1989 911 turbo that was first converted to MoTeC in 1996 and produced 521hp on an engine dyno (444hp on a Dynapack chassis dyno). It was used as my daily driver for awhile. The engine ran 6 years with about 20 track days per year on it, and I drove it in the winter on nice days. The engine was rebuilt after 6 years and the inside looked great, I still have the rod bearings and the P&Cs were resold and are running in someone's car now. It ran better than the factory mechanical fuel injection the car came with. I have a handful of other 911 turbo street cars running MoTeC with the same result.
It is my personal belief that a MoTeC ECU can be put on a stock 964 engine and with little effort programmed to pass emissions here in NY.
"All the factory Cup cars come from the factory with Motronic until this day, Motec is only a data acquisition system on board, I guess they do it for a reason. (provided we assume that Porsche Motorsports division have a few smart engineers)..."
Jean, that statement is very misleading. Just to be specific, the 2002 and later GT3 Cup cars and the GT3R, RS, RSRs, come with a Bosch Motorsport ECU, either 3.1 for the cup cars and early R,RS or 4.0 for the later RS and RSRs not street Motronics. The Motorsport ECUs are EXACTLY like MoTeC in that they are an aftermarket ECU designed to be programmed via laptop. The inputs and outputs are fully configurable and flexible, just like MoTeC. A PST2 or Hammer will not communicate to these ECUs. The earlier Cup cars, 2001 and earlier use a 5.2 Motronics ECU and if you have ever seen one, they do not start and drive very well when cold, certainly not like a production car. It is all about the mapping and time spent.
Porsche Motorsport originally used a STACK data acquistion system in the first GT3Rs but quickly switched to the MoTeC ECUs because it is a more flexible system and for the price, there wasn't another one to choose from.
I am one of the 75 or so authorized MoTeC dealers for which I paid for the training and passed the performance test. Further, I work closely with their R&D on new products and my Racecar used some beta software I was testing for them. I am listed on their Dealer website. While I haven't counted them, it was pointed out my Noah that there are about 14 other MoTeC dealers who are Porsche specialists. Please make sure your facts are correct before posting.
Jean, I did not say you were mistreated in childood, recheck my statement. It was deleted because it was written in anger and not what I meant exactly. I have no problems with the questions you ask, it is the fact that you came here, didn't read the entire thread before posting, insinuated that I was not a real tuner, mentioned my name in a post about not being happy to see you etc. This shows your true feelings torwads both Colin and myself. You consistently imply that I am not what I say I am and that is what makes me angry. I have the responsibility to protect my reputation and a man is more than just one statement written when provoked.
I will be the first to say that if tools for live mapping Motronics were available on a wide spread basis, that for most street driven cars, I would recommend that route, EVEN if you gave up a small amount of HP over an aftermarket ECU. The original poster was not asking to compare and contrast MoTeC vs Motronic but rather about MoTeC itself.
I would generally agree with Adrian that aftermarket ECUs have some significant advantages for a race car, but I disagree that they make the cars not drive very well BECAUSE of the ECU. I also to agree that I find more cars that don't run well when converted to an aftermarket ECU, but that is more because the tuner has not taken the time to properly map then engine or has used the wrong tools like a Dynojet 248c chassis dyno rather than an engine dyno or a chassis dyno that acts like an engine dyno in that it can hold the engine to a specific load. I hear "Its a racecar and is driven only at full throttle. My current racecar with a full racing engine, meaning ITBs, 316 seat duration camshafts, factory RSR pistons, race exhaust, lightweight clutch, etc. has no drivability issues and I'll offer to anyone, come see me and drive it to find out yourself. This is a standing offer. The mapping could be better, I have spent only 2 hours on a chassis dyno mapping from scratch, no base map to go from. For instance, there are spots where it runs .85 lambda when I want .88 lambda, but that can be fixed when I have some time to get back to my own project. My point being that it drives very much like a production car with only a few hours invested in engine mapping by someone who is an experienced engine tuner.
I also had a 1989 911 turbo that was first converted to MoTeC in 1996 and produced 521hp on an engine dyno (444hp on a Dynapack chassis dyno). It was used as my daily driver for awhile. The engine ran 6 years with about 20 track days per year on it, and I drove it in the winter on nice days. The engine was rebuilt after 6 years and the inside looked great, I still have the rod bearings and the P&Cs were resold and are running in someone's car now. It ran better than the factory mechanical fuel injection the car came with. I have a handful of other 911 turbo street cars running MoTeC with the same result.
It is my personal belief that a MoTeC ECU can be put on a stock 964 engine and with little effort programmed to pass emissions here in NY.
"All the factory Cup cars come from the factory with Motronic until this day, Motec is only a data acquisition system on board, I guess they do it for a reason. (provided we assume that Porsche Motorsports division have a few smart engineers)..."
Jean, that statement is very misleading. Just to be specific, the 2002 and later GT3 Cup cars and the GT3R, RS, RSRs, come with a Bosch Motorsport ECU, either 3.1 for the cup cars and early R,RS or 4.0 for the later RS and RSRs not street Motronics. The Motorsport ECUs are EXACTLY like MoTeC in that they are an aftermarket ECU designed to be programmed via laptop. The inputs and outputs are fully configurable and flexible, just like MoTeC. A PST2 or Hammer will not communicate to these ECUs. The earlier Cup cars, 2001 and earlier use a 5.2 Motronics ECU and if you have ever seen one, they do not start and drive very well when cold, certainly not like a production car. It is all about the mapping and time spent.
Porsche Motorsport originally used a STACK data acquistion system in the first GT3Rs but quickly switched to the MoTeC ECUs because it is a more flexible system and for the price, there wasn't another one to choose from.
Last edited by Geoffrey; 10-15-2006 at 10:34 AM.
10-15-2006, 10:59 AM
#180
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Originally Posted by Geoffrey
" I have been making enquiries and there are 3 Porsche Motec specialists listed on Motec's website in the USA and Geoffery isn't one of them."
I am one of the 75 or so authorized MoTeC dealers for which I paid for the training and passed the performance test. Further, I work closely with their R&D on new products and my Racecar used some beta software I was testing for them. I am listed on their Dealer website. While I haven't counted them, it was pointed out my Noah that there are about 14 other MoTeC dealers who are Porsche specialists. Please make sure your facts are correct before posting.
I am one of the 75 or so authorized MoTeC dealers for which I paid for the training and passed the performance test. Further, I work closely with their R&D on new products and my Racecar used some beta software I was testing for them. I am listed on their Dealer website. While I haven't counted them, it was pointed out my Noah that there are about 14 other MoTeC dealers who are Porsche specialists. Please make sure your facts are correct before posting.
Please accept my very genuine and heartfelt appology. Also please note that I didn't doubt that you were a dealer and specifically said that.
I looked at the Motec USA website and counted and read the details of all the dealers listed above "Canada". As I knew Canada wasn't part of the USA, I stopped scrolling down and wrongly assumed that that those dealers above Canada was all there was in the USA. After all, they had started listing those in another country!! I now realise that in Motec's eyes, Canada is a state of the USA and I should have scrolled down further. I thought it was a simple matter of the website not being up to date.
Once again, I am sorry for what I hope you can see is a simple mistake and I was careful to express that I didn't doubt that you were a dealer.