Jim Michaels

For Sale: '93 RSA #8146. White, 25K miles, LSD only option, no smoke, rain, snow, etc., concours condition, dealer serviced, all records. $28k OBO. Naaah.

Adrian

Dear Don,
If you come on this forum claiming you are an expert on a subject, especially 964s (for this forum) you should be able to offer some level of proof, when challenged by the experts already here. For the record I do not read books about the 964 I write them.
I would love to quote what was actually said yesterday to me but something along the lines of "You did not think we would spend extra money on these things and sell them cheaper did you?". Inbetween the laughing that is.
However let us get back to the powers of observation. If the early RSAs were really RSs where could we look to check this. Okay first of all is seam welding. The RS structural body components were seam welded in sections (forward, centre and rear) before the three sections were assembled and before the paint shop. You say that none of the RSA bodies (which is correct) were not seam welded. So what makes the difference between a 1992 C2 body and a 1992 RS body. Seam welding AND the bracketry was changed to accomodate the hydraulic boost brake system AND the power steering bracketry was removed in places.
So we can say that the RS America bodies and RS bodies started their existence from the same source. The C2. I would offer one concession though. The front fenders are a small piece added later. I am sure you know that. Maybe Porsche had a heap of peened front and rear fenders based on production line plans which did not come off. Porsche had this problem in 1994 and used turbo fenders to create the widebody Speedsters.
Back to observations. Have you seen in an early RSA the hydraulic boost pressure system bracketry in place or cut out, reworked.
Did you know that many many parts including suspesnion brackets, mounts etc are the same on a C4, C2 and RSA. Get underneath a RSA and have a close look. I did.
Now to your engine comment. The red crayon hidden under the muffler and heat shield which in your opinion suggests that somehow this M64/01 engine with a standard -03 DME has been secretely brought up to M64/03 spec. Have you considered other possibilities. You reject that the engine has been marked for installation into a RSA let us try the German language. Ever thought this might signify rechtseite of right side. Some form of instruction for maybe loading up, or transporting or fitting of something like the exhaust when it gets to the actual line. Or something else that has to go on the right side. The fact is that if you ever pull a 964 down you will find writing and little codes all over the place. I have even found peoples names on them. Hidden under bumpers and trim. Coins have been found stuck under things as well. However the most plausible explanation is still that the M64/01s which were built up for the RSA being 1992 engines were marked RS for installation purposes. The othe rissue that blows the special engine argument away is the fact that engine serial numbers and VINs were matched together by production control and not by the production line people. The matching was done long before the testing of the engine.
If you order a RSA engine by the way as a spare you get part number 964 100 264 41.
There is no special RSA service information manual so the factory manual applies and there are no special items related to the M64/01 engine for the RSA in the factory manual. If as you suggest cam timing was changed then it would have to be recorded.
Boy this post is getting long.
I would love to know where you got your information from about the Carrera RS being hard to sell towards the end. Were you here at the time? I was and still am. You could not purchase a Carrera RS later in the model year 1992. They had sold out.
The data you have on the touring models is wrong but we won't go into that. I think I know the book you got that out of but the error has been repeated many times.
Your statement has me a little confused about the wheels. Are you saying that you are an expert who has owned C2s and C4s which came with option M030 and 17 inch wheels. Boy you are good. For the record, option M030 was only available from model year 1991 with 16 inch wheels and from model year 1992 with 17 inch wheels. Modifications were required on all 89-91 C2s and C4s to allow 17 inch wheels to be installed and to avoid wheel rub. Rolling of fenders as you say (beading or peening as we say) was only required in model year 1992 as a safety measure to avoid wheel rub. It was discontinued as uncessary in 1993. Keeping in mind and I am sure you know that the bodies and chassis of the early RSAs were actually 1992 models. I am sure you remember M718 and the fact that they had a different serial number code.
My colleague knows more about Porsche, the production line, output of the factory and things technical about most models and yes he works for them.
So Don I think I need a tad more evidence from you to satisfy myself that your comments are accurate.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4

PS: I hope nobody thinks that I am anti RSA. I am not. There should have been more of them. I am just against people presenting stories in order to create something which is not true. The RSA is like every other 964, a great sport car. In the real world, the RSA was substantially cheaper in basic form thatn a C2, very substantially cheaper than a Carrera RS and far fewer RSA were sold across 2.5 model years, January 1992 to July 1994 than the Carrera RS. Still a great car though.

marc 1xx1

Dear all:

While I am not an expert at 964 or RSA, I am a very happy (and proud) owner of a 'rare' polar silver metalic sunroof deleted, no a/c, no radio RSA with limited slip. Just the way I wanted it.

My car is a very early car with an M date of 3/92 and the VIN of 418020 or car 20/297 for 1992. Not too many cars were sold/built between 1/92 and 3/92.

While my RSA has less than 26,000 miles on the clock (I swear it smells new), the car has seen plenty of track (DE) and autocross time.

What I can tell you is this...

Yes, I paid a premium for the car, but it is the car I ALWAYS wanted (I remember reading the Car and Driver article as a kid as if it were yesterday);

I have seen an RSA parked in the same garage as a Cupcar and compared the two. They are not the same. There is additional reinforment on the Cupcar that just doesn't exist on the RSA;

I do not beleive that my early RSA was a left-over seam welded CUP tub, but I do know that my wheel wells are rolled or peened or whatever you want to call it from the factory and not by a baseball bat, block of wood or a rubber mallet;

I have seen early and late RSA's and compared them. There are subtle difference. One example is that of the flat black paint at the inner edges of the door beneath the door panels. Early cars are pinted black, late cars are not. Another peculiarity is the paint in the lower ventilation grill. Early cars are painted flat black within this area, late cars are not;

No, the storage bins do not lock and the car was not delivered with a battery disconnect (as some literature had stated);

Yes, the RSA has an almost cult like following with lots of mystery that surround it;

No matter where I am, these cars draw a crowd of curious and wide eyed fans;

The cars just seem to drive stonger;

The engines sound just a little different;

The car just want to GO, GO, GO;

I have driven other 964's including a Cupcar, RSA, C2 and C4's. I don't know why and cannot explain it BUT their is just something different about the RSA and a lots different with the CUP. Even my friends that have non-RSA 964's say the same...the RSA is more like driving an 'earlier' 911.

As all of our cars are basically hand built could there be some deviations....Is it myth, urban legend, or someother strange coincidence? Maybe. Maybe not. Who cares!

Let's face it, we all suffer from the same problem...Porscheitis.

I still can't explain why I 'need' two 911's (one is for DE and the other is for Autocross always works. The SC is going to be my son's car (he will be two in three weeks) is another good one.

I say keep the cards, letters and emails coming...how about some more fact finding? In the end you can believe what you want to believe.

We need really need to do is to send a fact finding crew to Stutgart and seek out some of the original craftsmen that built these cars. Maybe if we take up a collection, we can have the History Channel or even Speed Channel do a documentary.

Will we ever know the truth? PROBABLY NOT!

Hey, its' summer time, get out and drive. And if it is raining out visit <a href="http://www.rsamerica.net" target="_blank">www.rsamerica.net</a> in your spare time for more fun. (Great job Keith!)

marc

ps: These thoughts and opinions adn observations are mine and mine only. It is not my intent to annoy, pester, insult or offend anyone who has previously posted within this thread (even if they don't own and RSA).

9caregiver

Adrian and John,
Who could have imagined the big debate this has created! I have never claimed to be an expert or for owning a C2 or C4. Adrian those were your words. Lets face it you did not like the ideas in my original posting and you have done all you can but throw in the kitchen sink to argue your points. After all the RS America is just a "cheaper" version of the C-2. Your explanations for the rolled fenders changes as this thread goes on.

The Porsche World has been a fun place for me for a long time. I have met alot of terrific people and shared many great experiences with them and the way you have played this is not fun.

I have been reading these boards for a few years and thought I might add to it. Considering this was the first time that I have posted here you could be more hospitable and certainly less sarcastic and harsh. No single person is all knowing and you are no exception.

John, The term rolled fenders has been used on these cars since people started noticing them. I know the Service information book uses the term "peened" but who would know what we were talking about if we used the term? Bob Gagnon even used the term "rolled" when he wrote that terrific article in Pano way back when. Were you laughing then?

I am sure there are others who would like to contribute here but may be afraid how you might bite their heads off. Something to think about for continued success. I will think twice about posting here again. Thanks and the Best to you. Don

Adrian

Dear Don,
I have more on this story but I will save it for another day or thread. I am sure you are tougher than to run away after a such robust exchange.
Please post if you have a question or we can be of any help.I am always ready to help a fellow 964 owner or any Porsche owner with a problem or a question. Always ready for a good argument as well.
I do take issue at your comment about having fun. You have no idea who were are or what we are about. Might be an idea to find out what rennlist is and who we are first. We have a lot of fun here but there is also the serious side. Our prime aim on this forum is to help people fix their 964s, help them select the correct one if they are purchasing one, advise on modifications and generally keep Porsches on the road. The success of all the rennlist forums has been and will continue to be the dedication to these simple tasks and creating a community which has already been achieved. You were not around here on March 30th last year. Those who were and read this post know what I am talking about. Rennlist and its long termers have nothing to prove to anyone. This is why it is so successful because people know they can be helped here, free of charge. However we kiss nobodys butt, I will challenge stories like the one you presented but your positive contributions are always welcome as is my and other willingness to help you should you need it.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4

PS: You should also know that I am an Australian living in Switzerland so I have a different way of doing things as well. Sort of take it or leave it I guess.

Strabo

OK, I'll bite... What happened on March 30?

Ruairidh

Don

No offence - but I don't think Adrian or John bit your head off. I also think they fought fair.

I do believe that the burden of proving that the RSA's were anything more than lighter, cheaper C2's has to be on the folks seeking to make that argument. I'll 'fess that is because I've always understood (from the time they were first sold) that is all RSA's were (and there is nothing wrong with that!)

Also (and I haven't checked this out) I'd assumed that as things were pretty desperate for Porsche in the early 90's the business rationale for the RSA was that it was a quick and simple way to shift a few extra C2's without the need for any investment. Relying on the RS badge and the "rawness" that lightweight Porsches have to sell the cars, in other words the ingredients for the RSA didn't include anything that added extra cost - and that would include messing up the production process to seek out special parts.

Incidentally I've driven a RSA and did find it peppier than the C2 and my own C4. However lighter weight will do this. I'm a former Lotus owner and Chapman's formula was just that, reduce weight and gain speed (which is why Bob Linton's car interests me so).

Gotta Hop things are pretty hectic.

KeithV

Keith V here from the RS America registry.

I have spoken to people within Porsche AG - not with buddies on the Porsche production line (very very few of whom who are there now were MANAGING the guys building cars ten years ago) but with the gentleman managing the factory Archives department.

He is able to spend countless hours researching the documentation of what was and was not built into various models AND DOCUMENTED. It's his job - he is very good at it.

The key here is "DOCUMENTED".

So the Porsche archivist (who admits he does not specialize in 964's but is a "generalist" - his words) said that he had not heard about North America RSA models getting any special treatment as far as the more powerful of the bunch of the M64 01 series engines (as opposed to the M64 03 for the Euro RS cars).

He did say that according to DIN standards, in Germany if you advertise a car as having XYZ horsepower then by law, it has to have that horsepower - at least! He said that it is common knowledge and normal mass production practice that a sample of any given product has to be taken to ensure consistency, and also that all Porsche engines were tested on a dynamometer at initial startup - strictly to ensure that they met the minimum quoted horsepower to comply with the law. He also stated that as each engine outputs varies, that it is "possible" that the higher end engines (hp wise) COULD be put aside...but in his words it would be "unlikely" for the RS America

If it did occur, it was definitely not DOCUMENTED in any production assembly engineering or test cell planning procedure.

This is what I was alluding to in an e-mail I sent to Bill Gregory which he mentions (and rubbishes) it in one of his earlier posts on this thread.

So, as much as I would LOVE to hear that RSA's have higher horsepower engines than regular C2's (or at least the highest of the spread) there is absolutely no proof that this is the case, and it has been opined by the factory archivist that this is indeed unlikely.

I still firmly believe that if your choice is a street car that you can occasionally use for track work (Autocross/Time Trial/Drivers Ed's etc.) that the RS America is very hard to beat.

Additionally, as Chief Driving Instructor for San Diego Region of PCA and having been instructing performance Porsche driving at monthly autocrosses for seven years I have driven a large number of 964's in all configurations from bone stock to stripped track-ready beasts, and I can categorically state form personal experience that for whatever reason you care to make up ... the regular 964 C2 (while an excellent car) just does not seem to have the "pep" or liveliness that the RS America has. I believe a large portion of it is to do with feedback.

Never mind the hearsay - or the auto magazine articles - or the epic posts to Rennlist

GO DRIVE THE SUCKER!

I’m telling you - there is a distinct edge to an RSA in terms of visceral feedback and urgency that lets you know in no uncertain terms it is a different car from the C2 - and I don’t mean marginally different.

The RSA is definitely NOT a tack car - it is a compromise nothing less. There are many 911s that are more "raw", have better handling, more agile and certainly faster, but the RSA is NOT the same as a C2.

I too initially dismissed the RSA "aura" as all hype and BS until after driving about the fourth RSA hard, I realized that they do have a very different "edgy" feel to them - even in completely stock form. I am not just talking about “Oh yes I test drove one once…” here.

I suggest you form your own opinion ...... do the research - with your right foot!

GREAT forum topic thread - EXCELLENT reading!! This is what a forum is meant to be about!!!

That's my unsolicited 2c

KV.

keithv@rsamerica.net

Adrian

Dear Keith,
Excellent post from yourself as well. I want to make perfectly clear yet again that is no way was I or I believe anyone else putting the RSA down. What was being challenged was the stories of the RSA being something secretly special. A conspiracy of denial.
The RSA in basic from was a cheaper version of the C2 in basic form. There is no argueing that. However this does not make it anything less and as you quite rightly point out as a driver it is a whole bunch more. The RSA was the best value for money 964 built. I would purchase one in a heartbeat. The RSA features quite a lot in my books. I should also point out that subjects like this thread do not feature in my book. There is also a RSA here in Switzerland. I have been trying to see how many were sold in Europe (yes you can purchase US models here as well) but no luck so far. I have heard a number of 25.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4

PS: To answer Daves question. On March 30th 2002 I was told that I had lost one of my children. Natalie Lousie Streather 27 June 1984 - 29th March 2002. Natalie died of a drug overdose.

KeithV

Don A,

I respect your opinion because it is based on your own personal experience and not 3rd or 4th hand info. You are indeed fortunate to have owned several of a Porsche that most of us dream of owning just one of ..... and I think you definitely know your stuff.

I also have no doubt Adrian and Bill know their stuff.

I think maybe they came down a little hard on you in this thread Don and I can understand that it may sometimes seem unfriendly or even arrogant.

Maybe as moderators that is something to consider.

I also believe that Don is not the kind of guy to let this kind of stuff get to him.

I really enjoy hearing debates like this because I like facts and evidence rather than gossip and rumor and it is a great way to try and learn which is which.

I still believe that Adrian and Bill think the way they do because they are not as familiar with an RSA as some others are! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

That's OK! Adrian and Bill .... we RSA owners understand!

Who was it that said

"Those of you who THINK you know everything .... are beginning to p*** of those of us who do!"

..... kidding guys! .....kidding!

9XI

I feel very, very fortunate to own my dream car -- a black '94 RSA. I have wanted this car since I read about the RSA coming out -- in Excellence.

I am in the brown shoe department of this forum, but I agree that RSAs feel different than C2s. I like the road feel, stiff suspension and the lack of sunroof. I really like that the car is hot-rodded a bit, but is stock. I feel some of the mystique of the "RS" badge. So does everyone who comes over to shoot the sh*t about P-cars -- "Nice RS...."

When I moved from an early S to the RSA, I expected to be a little let down by the luxury and weight of the RSA. The weight is noticable -- mostly cured by installing more responsive tires (S-03 PPs). No question, however, that the '69 S handles better. No question at all. On the other hand, the RSA has its positives that make it far superior in my book. It feels newer *without* feeling luxury. This was my most pleasant surprise. And, the RSA is every bit as viseral as the early S. More so, actually, because the gas pedal in the RSA is directly connected the the nerves in your brain that generate that "giddy smile" look. I was also surprised to like the whale tale. It adds something to the otherwise understated 964 looks. The tail itself is less dramatic (read smaller) than a turbo tail. A good thing in my book.

I could go on and on about these cars. RSAs will continue to command premiums because they are special. Absolutely love the car....

Kevin

This has been a very interesting thread. I have owned 3 964's and can say that I have had 2 '93 964's at the same time. One being a RSA with no sunroof, a/c., and the other C2 being your standard coupe. Both cars had there strong points. The RSA was definely gave you more road feedback. It did feel more responsive in acceleration. Yes, everything could be dupicated on the C2, however, why would you give up the creature comforts. If you are going to track the car, that a different story altogether. It just depends on how much money you have to spend. I'd definately dump the power steering regardless.

John: I would try to find out the actual method on how the factory did roll/peen the edges. My '93 had the rolled edges. I just can't picture them hand peening the edges with a dolly/hammer. They had to have used a special tool. I am not doubting your statement in anyway. It would just be nice to see the tooling.

RSAErick

Don, please don't feel too insulted by Adrian. He is reverred as our leading expert on 964's, and has personally helped countless 964 owners with any number of issues. Unfortunately, his surly demeaner has set a number of Rennlister's off. I try to look past it, and anxiously await his book!

Personally, I had the same reaction to the RSA - after driving several C2's.

In fact, I was so surprised with the difference that I convinced myself that there was something to it because of what I perceived to be a superior handling and accelerating car.

I was quickly and sternly reminded by my fellow Rennlisters that there was nothing to the perceived difference, and that the RS America was the "cheaper version of the C2".

For the most part, I accepted this.

But to say that the RSA is a "lighter, cheaper version of the C2" should not denote anything other than a difference between the two - rather than a factory ranking based on differences in the MSRP. The C2 was a heavier, more expensive model because it came with factory options that added cost and weight: leather seats, door handles, electric retractable rear wing, stereo equipment, A/C, power steering, sunroof, and wall-to-wall carpeting. If THAT is the reason why the C2 is more expensive... it does not mean that the C2 is a better car, or higher-end version of the 964 for that matter.

Fast forward to today: The truth may be out there, but I really don’t believe that todays higher market value of the RSA is a function of theories about seam-welding, rolled fenders, and higher horsepower engines. I believe that the differences in market value between the C2 and RSA is a function of ECONOMICS – supply and demand. The fact is that there are many Porsche-philes who desire EXACTLY what the RSA offers. The limited supply of the RSA results in a higher market value. Nothing more.

But regardless of these "facts", am I crazy, or does there exist some sort of resentment between C2/C4 owners and RS America owners? I am CONSTANTLY hearing phrases like: "the RSA is a cheaper version of the C2", or "isn't a 'real' RS", or "there's no 'real' difference between and RSA and a C2". Maybe I'm reading WAY too much into it, but sometimes I wonder if people's fragile ego's are getting in the way here. Or maybe the fragile ego is my own! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Best to all of my 964 brethren.
Erick

Ruairidh

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by RSAErick:
<strong>

But to say that the RSA is a "lighter, cheaper version of the C2" should not denote anything other than a difference between the two - rather than a factory ranking based on differences in the MSRP. The C2 was a heavier, more expensive model because it came with factory options that added cost and weight: leather seats, door handles, electric retractable rear wing, stereo equipment, A/C, power steering, sunroof, and wall-to-wall carpeting. If THAT is the reason why the C2 is more expensive... it does not mean that the C2 is a better car, or higher-end version of the 964 for that matter.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Erick, I used the "the lighter, cheaper..." phrase in my 2cents contribution to this thread. I want to add that I agree with your clarification. Those words (especially the cheaper)was not meant by me in a derogatory way.

Incidentally I've never looked down on the RSA as a cheaper version of anything. Just as I've never looked down on the C2 as being a cheaper version of the C4 or had any feeling that anyone could look down on me for choosing a 964 C4 as opposed to a 993C4 or a 996C4. They are all, to me, very different cars - and I can see each appealing for different reasons.

I do think RSA owners will have the last laugh as rarity will, IMHO, result in RSA residuals being firmer than C2 or C4. I thought that at the time I bought my C4 but, for me, the C4 was what floated my boat. Just as (I'm delighted to hear) the RSA floats many others boats.

What I do think is open for debate are matters of historical record - like whether "special" engines were used in the RSA line and - I repeat, I do not think unneccessary roughness was used with Don who - from this bystanders point of view, was pretty forceful himself in arguing his viewpoint.

I do think that fact and evidence should drive out speculation in that regard but that has nothing to do with the fact that the RSA package remains a pretty special car to many Porsche enthusiasts.

Enjoy

Ruairidh

Jim Michaels

Very well said, Ruairidh.

Erick: You raise a good question about the possibility of some C2 owners possibly sour-graping (or having some resentment as you say) on the RSA. I don't think that is the case, at least for most of those who have posted on this thread. First, what C2 owners have said about the differences is basically true. Second, what C2 and RSA owners have said about the differences is quite similar. Finally, from what I posted about the differences early in the thread, at least one reader apparently surmised that I owned a C2 rather than a RSA (this supports the second point above). What I have read on this thread that is new to me is that some who have driven and/or owned both think that the RSA is a better driver, even beyond the minor wheels and suspension differences. Perhaps any remaining difference is primarily due to the absence of power steering on the RSA; a difference that led someone to inquire about switching from power to manual steering.