OK so the contingent that thinks it's pointless to dump tens of thousands of dollars into a 25 year old car has spoken! We pretty much all know that! Thanks Captain Obvious!

So you can play with the sensible crowd and we'll carry on!

 

No pointless is subjective just like money. Which is why the money argument is just ignorant. People spend their money how they like. There will always be some dude who says "well my car is better because it only costs me x" or "my car is better because I built it myself". Those guys are ignorant and blind and they make up the majority of people building on a budget with a chip on their shoulders. Most guys who aren't trying to prove anything mod their cars and enjoy them and don't constantly have to try and "prove" how their choices make them "better".

What is silly is to try and take that perspective with a chip on your shoulder and prove your car can perform like a modern day supercar, it can't. The only person who would sit here and agree with that is also someone who isn't interested in being objective and just wants to know their car is somehow just as good or superior. Superiority or good is also subjective, but acceleration or track times, or hp isn't. Speed is retaliative and for most it's true they still consider a 400hp 944 to be a fast car, but in the world of modern day car modding it just isn't.

 

Hmm OK. I take your point, still I don't consider 400 hp a big Dog. Mine is close to that (according to PO) Porbally closer to 330. So I don't have a dog in this fight. Still the point is we like to mod our cars and see what they can do.

Nobody has said these cars are "better" tham modern day super cars. We jsut had a simulated run in with a Super car and one of our breed didn't get blown away.

I got nothing against Super Cars ( I love the Ford GT) and all Ferrari's and Austin Martins, Bentleys etc just that some of the guys are dicks and need to beat down!
80
Hell I beat a C 5 Vette in my Daewoo Wagon! He opened it and shut it down at 80 and I sailed by at 85.
Guy was a douch but I digress.

You've apparently been here forever so I'm only a little confused as to why you think 400hp is a big Dawg 951? I think 400hp would be cool but I'd consider that a good starting point myself!

Sooo, I think we understand what your saying but some of us just don't care!

A fool and his money and all that.

 

When I quote hp its always at the wheels and in the 944 world yes 400 rear wheel hp is very rare. Most people are running far less than that and even that is slow in today's world of modern car modding. The few 951's on here that make decent power say 450-500 rear wheel are extremely rare and even then can't compete to a modern sports car with the same amount of attention given to performance. I.E. You spend 20-25k to build a 500hp 3L monster and you'd still get walked bad by someone else who took their car and put 25k into making it go faster. That's why the money argument is stupid IMO. I say buy what you like and mod it how you like. Just be objective about things like performance. Style and taste are a personal choice.

So when you have someone who thinks they can beat a 500rear wheel 470+tq car with ten times the powerband of their turbo 4 with 380hp without even having to shift out of 5th gear it makes me laugh. No, the dude wasn't racing you and no under no circumstances would you ever be able to remotely hang with him on a road course, drag strip, or highway pull.

 

I would not say that old cars with old tech. cant beat new fast cars in straight line racing. Look at a supra turbo it will destroy any new car when built that includes the Ford GT with turbo's on it. When it comes to race tracks and suspension tech.
thats when it gets real hard to beat a new car. You wont see an old 911 beat a gt3 on the track but you could make it faster 40 to 130mph.

 

I didn't say impossible, lets stay on topic. This thread is about some dude with 380hp staying in 5th gear pulling a ford GT on the highway. Which we all know is bull****. Of course he gives concessions about understanding he couldn't beat one, but he thinks he can actually hang with one in a straight line and the reality is that guy would have destroyed him if they were both racing for real and both had clean hits. Funny you should bring up the MKIV in comparison to the 951 they aren't even remotely in the same performance envelope.

Btw lots of people over the years have also said their 951's can beat modded supras, just like modded vettes, just like modded etc, etc, etc. It's the whole. Z OMG! "my modded 951 is the fastest and best car in the world". Well one of those statements may be true for the owner and I'll let you pick which one. When I was having fun with my car it was just that fun! I knew it wasn't the fastest thing out there, but didn't care and never tried to prove my car was somehow superior to other modern cars of the day. This entire thread is ridiculous. Dude actually thinks he can hang with a stock Ford GT for pete's sake. Let alone one that's modded. I'd be happy to set up a race with both if he was ever in the DFW area so that he could learn just where on the straight line performance totem pole he ranks.

 

My point was regarding your statement on old cars. All cars have a limit they can achieve and the 944 turbo is not going to beat a modded vette, supra...(depending on the level of mods) but when a 944 turbo is modded and I am not takling about bolt ons and piggy backs on a 90k engine, which include the majority, it can be fast. I have been in plenty of fast cars like amg's, 997TT's.. and I will tell you that a built 3 liter done correctly with all the supporting mods will beat those cars, I know I have one thats been heavily modified and its fast. Yes, I do think a 951 can run with some super cars in certain performance area's but when those cars are modified its different story and I will be the first to tell you.
Most of those new cars are not crazy fast and a lot of it is hype. Look at the vette, every new model is hitting in the 10s for as long as I remember. Go see the truth about how hard it is to run a 10, its more like a 12 sec car and thats the latest z06.
I cant recall which show it was I think it was called Super cars and was on speed channel they had a modded gt ford and 60 to 130 was not that fast. The car was driven by Paul Tracy and I am sure he can drive you can look it up. He raced a gallardo driven by Tanner Faust. The same show has had other super cars and when you see the numbers with drivers that know their business driving you see the real numbers not the online fantasy.
Lots of BS with super car hype and dyno numbers but if this guys car had an honest 380-400 HP I would not be surprised if it ran with that GT if it was stock and the driver had average skills.

 

On a highway roll ET means nothing, trap speed is what matters. If you think a modded Ford GT or modded vette isn't all that fast when compared to a 951 perhaps you have ridden in or driven some seriously hurt cars. A Ford GT in capable hands stock is a monster when compared to a 951 forget when you actually put money into modding one. It's just laughable when comparing a car that costs what a nice set of wheels cost to a supercar. It seems your arguing semantics with me. Can an old tech car beat a new tech car if the circumstances and conditions are right? sure. Can a 951 beat a Ford GT in any area of performance? No. Certainly not when we are talking street car to street car. Sure you can bring out a track ready 951 that weighs 2220lbs and makes 500hp, but isn't that becoming a little like my brother can beat up your brother? I can always find a faster more properly setup car.

As far as what is considered fast again that's subjective. Do I consider a 500rear wheel vette fast? Nope... so what's the odds I'm gonna think a 400hp 951 is fast. I'm looking at a daily driven setup that makes 630/590 and I'll use it to get groceries and pick up the family in. A stock 997tt is hardly fast. It's all retaliative to your personal experience.

Perhaps we should setup a run between whomever thinks they have the fastest rolling 944turbo on the board 40-140/160 I'll video tape it and we can post the results so that maybe these types of silly comparisons can be put to rest. I'll see if I can get a friend to bring out a lightly modded Ford GT, maybe a supra, a few vettes so they can be sure to take their best shot.

 

Clearly you do not know what the 944 represents. It is not a ‘supercar’ and I am very thankful of that. It’s a well balance affordable sports car that is very nice in stock form and responds well to modifications…but its strongest point? Its affordable. That’s very important to me because I like to really use my cars. If I really wanted I could buy probably buy a ‘super car’ – but then my odd sensibility would not allow me to track it 20 – 30 days a year. To me there are very few ‘Super Cars’ that are actually useful. You don’t see many Ford GT’s at the race track getting driven really hard. Even more true when it comes to Lamborghinis and other exotics (the one exception is Ferrari which seems to have some of their faithful that doesn’t mind driving their cars hard).
So the interesting view I have makes it a no win scenario to own a ‘super car’ – either you are the guy that has so much money that you can abuse an expensive car without concern or you are the putz that bought a very expensive toy that you are afraid to actually really use make use of its capabilities.

I would be happy to meet you at any road course track and we can have a go at it for 60 minutes, I would enjoy that immensely. The Ford GT would not. Not that it isn’t a very nice car – the problem it that there are very few people that would be willing to modify their Ford GT to make it survive at the track. (BTW – I was at VIR earlier this year doing a testing weekend and the Robertsons were there as well. Not the fastest car there by a long shot).

Again – it comes down to the fact that the 944 is at the right price point that you can modify it all you want without worrying about devaluing your investment, you can get spare parts from the Lart for a very reasonable fee and there are some decent go fast parts available.

I actually get a smile on my face as I clean off the rubber marks from the bumper and hood – its means I have had some fun. I don’t cringe when I hear things bounce off my 944 as I close up on somebody at the track. I can get some greasy hand prints on the car as I change a shock or sway bar setting without running to get a certified 100% cotton cloth and some $100 a can special wax.

Um…yeah, I don’t use those too much at the track. I do use them in my street car – which is far more comfortable than the Ford GT, Lambo or other ‘Super Car’. You see I managed to figure out that you can’t have everything all rolled up into one car. I have the 944 for the track, an Audi S4 for driving the family around quickly, an Audi A4 cab for touring, a 968 3.0 turbo cab just because I wanted one and a tweaked Mini Cooper S (some days its almost too fun to be legal!) – all for less than the price of a Ford GT.

The one last thing that you may have missed is that a majority of 944 guys like to work on their cars themselves. Not just because they want to save money but because its an important part of the car guy process. The only thing you need to own a Ford GT is a check book. The most important thing you need to own a 944 is a decent set of tools! When I point to my 944 (or 968) I can call it ‘my car’ for more than just my name on the title, its ‘my car’ because I built it to my taste with my skills and my time. I don’t invest money in my 944, I invest my time, skills and effort.

To me that is the difference between a Car Guy and a guy with a car.

 

Chris you have a pm

 

OK, I am in – but since street racing is for low budget punk wanna be’s that don't really know what 'racing' is we can do this the right way – we will roll through the heal (turn 8) at Watkins Glen at 40 and go from there.

 

You just gave me a post full of subjective view points on why you like the 944. There is no arguing over subjective. I think it's great you love the car so much. I like it too, I just don't think it's the end all be all and there's nothing wrong with that. If you think a 350hp 944 can run with a Ford GT on the race track that's another issue entirely. Street rolls are for punks? What's the subject of this thread again?

If you want to run a full out race car 944 does that mean I get to bring a full out race version of a Ford GT? The part in bold strikes me as "my car is better because I do my own work" etc and again that's a pretty foolish statement. So in your mind if someone loves a car and owns it, but chooses to have someone else build it he isn't a car guy? He is just some guy who owns a car?

 

Thanks for sharing the same sentiments. I wish I have the knowledge and skills as many of you on here who actually worked on and tune their cars. I do work on the car from time to time but usually don't touch the "big job"- my shop does that for me. But I genuinely enjoy fast cars but just so happens to fell in love with a 951 since it first debut to the public in 1986. I couldn't afford it so I got an 86 NA instead but this one is my 2nd turbo. To be honest, 400hp on the street is plenty and you'd need a track to fully exploit its potential so that would be my next step. But after spending thousands into the car, a lot of times, it is hard to go race the thing and mess it up the body work.

 

Thanks for your honest feedback. You are entitled to your opinion. Let me remind you and everyone on here that I was not racing for pink slip with the Ford GT. If I did, I wouldn't do it with my wife seating next to me and and would find a track. Furthermore, I would prepare my car better and to bring at least another 30 rwhp to the table by running race gas and boost, to run against a 500+hp car. My experience, hence the simulation run, was just to see how my 951S did putting 380 to the pavement for that 5 second run. In other word, the Ford GT driver was in it to show off as he was from the get go, and I just wanted to see what the 3L could do. It wasn't like, I came up on him, pull to the side and urging him to race like a punk would do. If anything, I wanted to wave to the guy and commented on his nice car but he wouldn't even bother to look our way---you know, superiority syndrome. So my run was an honest assessment of what our car can do, albeit with increased displacement. The Ford GT may have 550hp/500tq but it is porky. It got ~ 100 hp on me, but I would gain most of it back being ~ 500lbs lighter. Our 951 gearing is also set up to do quite well in high speed passing on the hwy and this is well documented. I was simply in this window and took advantage of it in 5th gear...so yes, I could have go down one gear but it was not a "race" per se- just as is, to see how the car response. Finally, I just wanted to see if what I experienced is not my imagination so I did a simulated 60-100mph run on a muggy night, after dinner and got 5.27 secs from 4th--- and wait for it....the Ford GT's time is 5.0secs. So there you go. While your feedback is noted, it would be better appreciated if there was good reasoning behind it other than just nothing but calling people out- who is the punk here?

 

So I guess it does not garner any respect from you that One of these cars can be built, driven daily, raced weekly and be able to run ZR1,997TT, Porsche GT , Ford GT40and the like 1/4 mile mph?

From what I'm gathering, a Ford GT traps around 126 at sea level in most tests. It would be a bit less at this elevation and I'd be a bit more at sea level. So Honestly I'm not scared of a Ford GT from a roll especially up here.

John I understand that you've been around some fast cars but to just discount these cars ands the people who build them because you've moved on is quite disrespectful..


And no.... I don't really have a lot of respect for thoise who just break out the wallet and pay someone for a fast car. Because when it comes down to it, there will be a time when you need to know WTF you're doing and "your GUY" won't be there to hold your hand.....