Gator_86_951

944 turbos are a hellishly slow money sink compared to everything else out there these days. But, I still like them.

porshhhh951

Well I meet a few of those criteria, but not all of them. I love to find out what works, and I certainly appreciate craftsmanship and effort. I don't however love doing the work myself so I guess I'm not a car guy by your definition.

I do not believe your story. but I thought we all knew that. I do not think a 380hp 951 has a shot in hell at running with a Ford GT, but that's besides the point. The posts following and discussion were very polarized as anyone would expect giving heavy bias towards a platform that quite frankly is tortoise hair slow when compared to fast sports cars of today. That isn't to say the 951 is a bad car, I think they are fun cars, but they aren't fast cars in my opinion. Regardless of what accounts as fast for you is irrelevant. I was mostly saying there is no way in hell your running with a Ford GT and considering I had a 944 that was making decent power for the platform and I repeatedly beat on it I'd say I have a fair understanding of what they're capable of.

You can think its me bashing you, that I don't respect the 944, that I have a bad taste in my mouth, that I have a small *****, that I'm not a true car guy, or I smell funny. I think I've earned my stripes when it comes to modded cars and what's out there and believe my opinion is relevant to a discussion about what is and isn't with these cars. It isn't and never will be personal.

333pg333

John I recognise that these threads irk you and from time to time you post on them. I think the term you’ve used many times is that it’s Subjective. I’m guessing you mean ‘Relative’ not ‘Retaliative’ in the context of your sentences? Being subjective is what it’s all about. In all the threads you’ve come onto regarding these circumstances, I don’t recall anyone saying their cars are superior to the modern day Supercars. Not once. What they might have said is that they were able to run with ‘Car X’ on the track or in many cases, the street. This may be true. There’s no way of verifying if the driver of those Supercars were really trying, but to your point, at least on paper we stand no chance. Back to Subjective though. I think if you ran a one of these guy’s (Sid, Chris, Duke, Corleone, Thom, Tom, Sean, George, Joe etc,etc…) cars on a roll from say 50mph – 120 mph they would stand up to a lot of Supercars very well. In fact they’d beat most off the shelf Supercars. Then go to the track and play. To Chris’ point not many guys want to push their Supercars on the track, so it’s subjective and relative but you can only play what’s in front of you.
Sure, if you take a F.GT and put twin turbos on it, or Lambo, or whatever, then yes, we’re toast but again, I think you have to use the $$ side of things to redress the balance. All of these cars cost a lot of money. So does building a top end 951…(in most cases, barring Sid) but nowhere near the $200k+ that these Supercars cost and then to buy some of the TT kits for them is another $30-$50k fitted. Nevertheless, nobody thinks the 951 is the best car in the world. Not quite sure why you keep saying this?

porshhhh951

I feel like subjective is the correct term when someone is taking something that isn't quantifiable and saying it is. i.e. personal taste, style, modding choice, financial build/platform choice, etc.

I do not think even the highest hp 944's on this board would even run with a run of the mill D1 LS3 vette that could be built for 40-50k much less the high end stuff that you just spoke about. There are several runway events out there that would allow us to test this, but really were splitting hairs here now. The OP post IMO is bs and I stated so. This discussion has veered so far off course now we really don't have anything to debate about. Again I love the 944 and what it can do with a modest budget, but I don't consider it fast by today's standards. If someone on here does then that's okay we can all have different opinions. What isn't I don't feel up for debate is a street tuned 380hp 944 staying in 5th gear and running with a Ford GT that's really in it.

As far as real racing that involves turns Mark runs his Ford GT constantly out at MSR and ECR. There are many owners of high end cars that run them and aren't afraid to break them. Thus my point that anyone speaking in generalities to "this build" or "that build" is silly and un-founded. If the OP had said
"hey I ran into a Ford GT on the highway and we had some fun" you never would have heard me call BS. Your right I'm always mixed up in these type threads over the years and I'd like to say I'm better about it, but when people BS and then it becomes a dog pile something about it just always bothered me. Especially given most people's scope is barely beyond their driveway and what their limited budget allows them to get involved in.

I prolly had 60-65k tied up in that last 944 throughout ownership and some might say that I was stupid for doing so. Or that I could build xyz for so much cheaper yada yada yada. I never bought into the silly money argument and I think it's stupid. People spend their money how they see fit and we shouldn't judge others negatively just to make ourselves feel better about how we spend our money. Too many people judge someone who writes a check, or has nice things and that's unfortunate. We are all in this hobby and we all love cars. Just because I write a check and you build yours in your driveway doesn't make you more of a car guy than me. I'd happily buy the beer and pizza at a wrenching party and give support where I could. lmao wait a minute I have done that come to think of it.... haha

mudbuddha

Ok so nothing personal. point taken. You keep saying 380hp- are you saying my 3L is only making approx 300 to the wheels? Who fork up $20K into an engine and mods and making only 300rwhp? That would be bs if not stupid. Let me continue with my story...After we have our exchange of accelerations and by this time, the Ford GT driver probably figured out that we were heading to the same gathering (the car show's proceeds were for charity btw, so it was for a good cause), the driver unexpectedly put on his blinker and veered off to another direction. Who knows, he may need to stop for breakfast with his wife, refuel (need more fuel after spirited run with 951?), figured that we are going the same way so may be had enough? Who knows. So got to the destination first and 15 minutes later, he came strolling in. Clearly, he can see my car parked in the 2nd row and in the same row toward the middle are 3 other Ford GTs. The driver did not even turn towards us, he kept going to a more secluded place and parked by himself next to some lesser "sport car". I thought this was a little strange because if I were him, I'd want to park next to all my super car buddies. So, this is just conjecture from me, but I feel that he was somewhat, if not slightly embarrassed- maybe ego bruised just a little perhaps? I am just saying...Again, just a bs story so take it with a grain of sea salt.

lart951

What???? serious this is news to me.

porshhhh951

If I'm not correctly quoting your hp then please correct me. I thought you said your car was making 380rear wheel hp. Again as I stated earlier I don't ever quote flywheel hp whats the point after all? All I ever care about is what it's making at the tires. So when I throw out a hp number its always wheel hp not flywheel.

I never had mine dyno'd, but similar setups were lower 400's so I'd say that's a safe bet. It was a neat car and made a lot of cool sounds at 22psi hell even bolt on stock motor/turbo it was a neat car to me. I loved how it shot flames and I loved the sounds it made, but I never thought it was fast. It was a childhood dream car of mine and something I didn't mind sinking time/money into. The only reason I got rid of it was because I wouldn't have much of a place to park/drive it and I was about to get crazy with the next build phase after the front end was crunch city(accident).

You never did answer me. You still keeping these things alive?

lart951

Sure check this thread

https://rennlist.com/forums/944-turb...-pictures.html

porshhhh951

Looks like you and your boys are out having a blast. That's awesome Never thought I'd see the day you actually started saving these things.

mudbuddha

I think I remembered seeing your 951 with a 968 rear conversion no? It looks fast but let me tell you, a higher displacement motor will be faster at similar hp level- there is just more tq under the curve especially in the mid-range. This is what enabled me to keep up with the Ford GT, no bs here. I was not racing him and it wasn't my intention from the get go. He on the other hand was just showing off and really was into it. We were moving at 10 over and he just shoots by in all the glory. So I am pretty certain he took off like he meant it and let up only when it was all too certain that he would have had to keep his foot in it much longer because I was riding his tail lamps. So it wasn't racing so yeah, you could call it a spirited run although he didn't seem to be happy afterwards so who knows. I am sure he and his wife was shocked and we were in awe- shock and awe, so it's all good fun.

Wait a sec., before I continue, I recall of may be on your "accident" thread a while back, and wished you well in your recovery and you come on my thread and bash me- how nice, John. This is how you return a favor to your fellow rennlister?

porshhhh951

No it wasn't fast, and no your car making 30-50 less hp isn't fast either(IMO). I'm well aware of what .5ltrs more will do as far as powerband again your 380hp 3L isn't running with a Ford GT that's actually racing. I agree all in good fun so just leave it as a nice run in with a great car and call it that. Why bs? No he wasn't in it to win it. He was just ****ing around. Does it really matter that I know your story is BS? If you feel so strongly about it go find that car and run it for real and put it on videotape. Then no one would be able to call BS on you. I find it laughable that you post a street racing story that's a makeshift race between you and a Ford GT in traffic on a way to a car show and your actually offended that someone else has an opposing opinion.

Wished me well in my recovery? Your confusing me with someone else. My accident wasn't serious, it just knocked around the delicate front end pieces of the car. Which as most know once those gaps become mis-asligned it's nearly impossible to get them to match up right again. Exactly how am I treating you? You seem to be the one worked up not me. If you think you beat him great, I'm just some random dude on the internet.

333pg333

As you say, this thread's gone off the rails some time ago, but then again it's the internet. So really doesn't matter what we all write.

I know you don't consider the $ thing relative, but I have to say it is. Otherwise what's the point of comparing a $5k-$40k 951 (trying to cover all bases) with a $150-$250k car? You then talk about a D1 LS3 for what, $40k. So now we're comparing a what, 6 or 7L car with forced induction. So is that what it takes to compare dollar for dollar to beat a high output 951? Seems like taking a gun to a knife fight. As the 951 starts off as an i4 turbo car and a Vette starts off as a high capacity n/a car, that in itself seems like a fair fight. Give them a supercharger and I'm sure they'd win. Never been in any of these sorts of cars so I have no idea but I'd have to assume it's true enough.

Anyway, this is all a bit of forum guff. Just like people love their Mini Coopers or Fiat Topolinos or sewing machines and stamps...we love our 951s with all their foibles. Hand me the keys to an Aventador and I'll swap gladly though.

Chris White

OK, I guess I have to point out the obvious – if all you care about is straight line acceleration then the 944 is the wrong car for you. I actually feel bad for you because you missed the best part of the car, the handling. Sure, we talk about engines and horsepower on this forum - but that is not the point of a 944. It’s about the balance and handling.

I do have to add that, in my humble opinion, street racing requires almost no driving skill (unless you have to swerve around a puppy wandering in the street!). It really should be call Pro SDM (Street D*ck Measuring). Somebody honks, waves or flashes their lights and then you floor it…..weeee. Don’t get me wrong – I am not one of those ‘don’t ever drive fast safety *****, far from it. Playing around with cars is fun….but Pro SDM ain’t racing and it doesn’t require any great driving skills.

Back to the original story – I am sure it happened as it was portrayed – after playing with cars for many years you realize that there are a lot of people that have no business driving a ‘super car’ actually own them. I helped out a Ford GT owner a couple of years ago that was an ‘enthusiast’ - he was the mildest guy you could imagine and did not like to drive over 60….he loved his GT but never used it anywhere near its capabilities. I would guess that he spent more on wax than gas. All you need to own a ‘super car’ is the ability to write a check. Owning one does not make you a better driver; in most cases it makes you a worse driver. I think that’s what the original poster came across – a nice car with a skill-less driver. The story did not pick on the GT at all, in fact it was obvious that he appreciated it, the GT owner on the other hand, did not come across as a ‘Car Guy’!

Chris White

Fixed it for you Lart -
Nevertheless, everybody thinks the 951 is the best parts car in the world.

toddk911

Texas John!!! Been too long since we have seen some kills of yours from back in the day and you and I getting bashed for our reckless street racing. Lol Good times.

Are you still in NY or back in TX.

To the OP based on the GT owners actions at the show I would agree he might have had his tail between his legs. I know if it were me I would have made it a point to inform you if I "was just toying with you". He went and parked in the corner and didn't say a word.

Oh also everyone needs to remember hp means very little when many modern high hp cars are VERY heavy. Power to weight means everything. Which is why a 100hp sport bike can smoke 90% of all cars on the road.