Rennlist 928 sponsorship opportunity - Let's buy Mark Kibort a new motor!! $100 Each
10-04-2006, 09:39 PM
#301
Rennlist Member
Sounds like Marc agrees here too.
Since the block plating is a way to go without having to worry about coating the pistons, why dont we go that way.
Marc, whats your take on the rings in the block?
Thanks!
MK
Since the block plating is a way to go without having to worry about coating the pistons, why dont we go that way.
Marc, whats your take on the rings in the block?
Thanks!
MK
Originally Posted by marc@DEVEK
We developed a coating and coated 8 sets of pistons. Once piston allegedly "failed" and since the customer was incentivized by another vendor while at the original ICOC to be "aggressive", we no longer provide that service and never recoverd our investment in the process.
Coating the block is a good solution for a race engine. This would be my choice. The coating alone is worth about 5% in reduced friction, assuming the correct rign solution is used.
BTW - 7 engines are still running...so piston coating can be done successfully.
Coating the block is a good solution for a race engine. This would be my choice. The coating alone is worth about 5% in reduced friction, assuming the correct rign solution is used.
BTW - 7 engines are still running...so piston coating can be done successfully.
10-04-2006, 09:43 PM
#302
Rennlist Member
Yes, great components.
The block worries me. (thinner cylinder walls with those steel rings)
I think we should keep the compression at near 11:1 or less. I want to be able to run pump gas on the street and maybe a mix if nessary at the track.
flat pistons with the proper valve reliefs is probably the way to go.
thoughts?
MK
The block worries me. (thinner cylinder walls with those steel rings)
I think we should keep the compression at near 11:1 or less. I want to be able to run pump gas on the street and maybe a mix if nessary at the track.
flat pistons with the proper valve reliefs is probably the way to go.
thoughts?
MK
Originally Posted by BrendanC
I guess I am seeing this discussion and not getting the directions that some people are pointing at.
The block as it stands is being purchased with Alot of great parts, and the parts that are great are the ones that in my mind would dictate a safe and repeatable route for Mark.
That is:
Stroker Crank
Aftermarket rods
Strengthened towers on the block (these rings supported more pressure then many realize in Todd's motor)
This is a GREAT platform for a long-term racing motor. ALL THAT IS NEEDED is custom pistons by arias or JE, which can be dsigned easily and are very light, and to get the block nikasiled, after being bored to the proper dimentions for whatever piston size is determined.
Coating JE pistons is not a proven solution, and Mahl can't even get thier own new coating right anymore. It is a sacrificial coating as we all know, even when it was tin or iron on the old original pistons.
JEs (or any other forged AL/SI piston) in a Nikasil bore is a PROVEN system and it works long term. JEs can be had for 1000-1200, and the plating would be close to 1800 said and done.
Balance everything for another 1000 down to a knat's eyelash, and be done with it. Figure out how to get more air if needed out of the heads.
Run a high compression piston design, and use a cometic head gasket, after getting the block and heads close to a 50 RA surface rating, and its done.
Well, get the S3 cams from Mark's current motor, and maybe 968 valves.
And again, on the rings that sit outside the bores - if that is a huge issue, find another blank block and get it to 104.
The block as it stands is being purchased with Alot of great parts, and the parts that are great are the ones that in my mind would dictate a safe and repeatable route for Mark.
That is:
Stroker Crank
Aftermarket rods
Strengthened towers on the block (these rings supported more pressure then many realize in Todd's motor)
This is a GREAT platform for a long-term racing motor. ALL THAT IS NEEDED is custom pistons by arias or JE, which can be dsigned easily and are very light, and to get the block nikasiled, after being bored to the proper dimentions for whatever piston size is determined.
Coating JE pistons is not a proven solution, and Mahl can't even get thier own new coating right anymore. It is a sacrificial coating as we all know, even when it was tin or iron on the old original pistons.
JEs (or any other forged AL/SI piston) in a Nikasil bore is a PROVEN system and it works long term. JEs can be had for 1000-1200, and the plating would be close to 1800 said and done.
Balance everything for another 1000 down to a knat's eyelash, and be done with it. Figure out how to get more air if needed out of the heads.
Run a high compression piston design, and use a cometic head gasket, after getting the block and heads close to a 50 RA surface rating, and its done.
Well, get the S3 cams from Mark's current motor, and maybe 968 valves.
And again, on the rings that sit outside the bores - if that is a huge issue, find another blank block and get it to 104.
10-04-2006, 10:13 PM
#303
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Originally Posted by BrendanC
and Mahl can't even get thier own new coating right anymore. It is a sacrificial coating as we all know, even when it was tin or iron on the old original pistons.
I guess I'm being outvoted. Oh well, enjoy spending the extra money for no gain and a potentially great loss.
10-04-2006, 10:17 PM
#304
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Originally Posted by mark kibort
we are only talking about 2mm on the side of the cylinders to bore to 104mm. however, if 2mm are missing, and it looks like more, that may not be enough to work with. I certainly dont like those rings in there. again, not proven, and could be certainly problematic. (ie dissimilar materials with different expansion rates, etc
Originally Posted by mark kibort
we should just get a scorred block for cheap and bore that and remove that variable.
mk
mk
10-04-2006, 10:31 PM
#306
Originally Posted by FlyingDog
I'm sure Mahle and KS are really incapable of making Alusil compatible pistons for all the current production Porsches, BMWs, and Mercedes that use them.
I guess I'm being outvoted. Oh well, enjoy spending the extra money for no gain and a potentially great loss.
I guess I'm being outvoted. Oh well, enjoy spending the extra money for no gain and a potentially great loss.
Nikasil + JE pistons Is NOT a potential for great loss. It is a proven and tested method for long-term use.
With all the respect implied, have you personally called KB and Mahle and asked if they are doing AL/Si pistons in custom shapes and sizes (remember, it needs custom) with the original coatings they used for Alusil 20 years ago, or as you mentioned, what they are usuing for alusil today? I know lokasil, and nikasil are used today, I was not aware of alusil.
10-04-2006, 10:42 PM
#307
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Originally Posted by BrendanC
Matt, let me be clear - they aren't offering these coatings as they were for the 928 originally (or the 944). They are offering the ferroprint - which is ****, honestly, as I have seen in in person now. It is VASTLY different then what we have in our 200,000 + mile lasting engines.
Nikasil + JE pistons Is NOT a potential for great loss. It is a proven and tested method for long-term use.
With all the respect implied, have you personally called KB and Mahle and asked if they are doing AL/Si pistons in custom shapes and sizes (remember, it needs custom) with the original coatings they used for Alusil 20 years ago, or as you mentioned, what they are usuing for alusil today? I know lokasil, and nikasil are used today, I was not aware of alusil.
Nikasil + JE pistons Is NOT a potential for great loss. It is a proven and tested method for long-term use.
With all the respect implied, have you personally called KB and Mahle and asked if they are doing AL/Si pistons in custom shapes and sizes (remember, it needs custom) with the original coatings they used for Alusil 20 years ago, or as you mentioned, what they are usuing for alusil today? I know lokasil, and nikasil are used today, I was not aware of alusil.
http://www.kolbenschmidt.de/pdfdoc/porsche_v8_gb_e.pdf
10-04-2006, 10:53 PM
#309
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Originally Posted by FlyingDog
I'll settle if you and Erik come to Frenzy this year. 
Sorry.
10-04-2006, 11:09 PM
#310
Originally Posted by FlyingDog
Greg Gray has bought custom Mahles and I found a forum post of a guy who bought custom KS for his M5. Alusil is used in M5s, Cayennes, and 7-series that I know of and I think some current Mercs. From what I've read Lokasil and Alusil can use the same piston coatings and rings.
http://www.kolbenschmidt.de/pdfdoc/porsche_v8_gb_e.pdf
http://www.kolbenschmidt.de/pdfdoc/porsche_v8_gb_e.pdf
If I could RIGHT NOW get custom Mahles or Kolbens for my engine build, I probably would. But it would have to be EXACTLY like the pistons I have - in that they would be properly coated, almost anodized, with this tin or iron coating. I have seen NEW old stock 4.5L 928 pistons from Mahle. You can see them too in an old thread of mine on the 78 motor build that I did.
But whenever people get word from Mahle that I have seen for 6 years on this board, they get the run around, the long wait periods, high prices, and the damn peal-n-stick ferroprint.
People want to call bull on me, thats fine, but a nikasil bore with JEs, or Wisconsin-born sleeves are the options I see when you go outside the alusil/atock pistons parameters.
10-04-2006, 11:22 PM
#311
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KS currently uses a tin coating in place of their old lead based coating. Mahle's Ferroprint is an iron coating. Greg Gray said he had no problems getting his custom Mahle pistons. Maybe you should contact Greg if you want some custom pistons...
10-04-2006, 11:25 PM
#312
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Wow! I didn't know this thread was still this alive.
Some one emailed me and asked me to read through and reply to this thread but after taking a look at a few of the posts I think I will refrain to just making a few statements.
First of all, what a generous group we have here at Rennlist! I know JD is very proud of what took place with this sponsorship and I personally spoke with Mark Kibort and know he is truly humbled by everyone’s generosity.
With that being said; I know what the application is going to be for this engine and my intention is to supply the engine accordingly. The original engine, which was the main focus of this venture, was purpose built for supercharging so there are going to be some changes made before it gets delivered to Mark knowing what his goals are. I'm sure Mark will be happy to share all the details with you all once they have been ironed out but for now you can be assured that our best efforts are being put into this project. I'll tip my hand just a little and that's going to be it for now: Nikasil, big bore, custom pistons, no cylinder supports (different block). As of 9:35PM CST and subject to change.
Some one emailed me and asked me to read through and reply to this thread but after taking a look at a few of the posts I think I will refrain to just making a few statements.
First of all, what a generous group we have here at Rennlist! I know JD is very proud of what took place with this sponsorship and I personally spoke with Mark Kibort and know he is truly humbled by everyone’s generosity.
With that being said; I know what the application is going to be for this engine and my intention is to supply the engine accordingly. The original engine, which was the main focus of this venture, was purpose built for supercharging so there are going to be some changes made before it gets delivered to Mark knowing what his goals are. I'm sure Mark will be happy to share all the details with you all once they have been ironed out but for now you can be assured that our best efforts are being put into this project. I'll tip my hand just a little and that's going to be it for now: Nikasil, big bore, custom pistons, no cylinder supports (different block). As of 9:35PM CST and subject to change.
Last edited by Tim Murphy; 10-04-2006 at 11:50 PM.
10-04-2006, 11:40 PM
#313
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Originally Posted by BrendanC
If I could RIGHT NOW get custom Mahles or Kolbens for my engine build, I probably would. But it would have to be EXACTLY like the pistons I have - in that they would be properly coated, almost anodized, with this tin or iron coating. I have seen NEW old stock 4.5L 928 pistons from Mahle. You can see them too in an old thread of mine on the 78 motor build that I did.
<snip>
<snip>
10-05-2006, 12:03 AM
#315
Administrator - "Tyson"
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Originally Posted by Tim Murphy
As of 9:35PM CST and subject to change.
Mark,
Todd is curious to find out the results of the cam work you had done last year. Any info?