Larry928GTS

I may not agree with some of what Herr Kuhn thinks, but he has put together three engine with Nikasil THAT HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN OPERATED FOR A NUMBER OF MILES. You on the other hand site an example of someone getting custom Mahle pistons THAT HAVE NOT BEEN RUN FOR EVEN A SINGLE MILE. You then also mention Herr Kuhn's current engine. Has that one been run yet with coated pistons in an Alusil bore, or is it another one of your examples of stuff that might work when it's finally actually tried?

I'm quite aware that Mahle knows how to make pistons that will run in Alusil cylinders, and that they haven't forgotten how to do that. YOU CAN NOT GET CUSTOM PISTONS LIKE THAT FROM THEM. Mahle does not do custom pistons like that. They don't do custom pistons at all the last that I heard. Mahle Motorsport does the custom pistons, and the coating that they use is NOT THE SAME AS THE COATING ON STOCK PISTONS. Why do you think that people have gone to custom pistons and Nikasil, if they could have just gone to custom Mahles, left the Alusil bore and saved a bunch of money by not doing the Nikasil?

Check with the 911 crowd like you said? The last that I had looked into it to see what they were doing as far as cylinder walls when going to a bigger bore the popular concensus seemed to be to go to Nikasil. What do you get from Mahle when you go bigger bore in a 911?
http://www.us.mahle.com/C1256F7900537A47/vwContentByKey/W26HSFB8505STULEN/$FILE/page23.pdf

hacker-pschorr

Different pistons - yes that is an option. If anyone is willing to roll the dice and find him some - go ahead. We (Todd, Tim and myself) are not. Our suggestion is coating the motor. Mark can do what he wants. We are not focing him to do anything.
Well, those who want this question answered could also ask why Didn't Mark come out before this was over and say "I DON'T WANT THIS MOTOR!!!"

There was nothing to explain about this "issue" before since nobody saw this as an issue except Mark. So now that it is an issue to the one person who will be using this engine, we are trying to find the best solution. It really isn't all that complicated.

hacker-pschorr

Oh sweet - thanks for the info. I'm sure Todd will be very interested in seeing this.

SharkSkin

I put money in the hat, so here's my say on this:

It sounds to me like Tim & Todd are stepping up in a big way, maybe even eclipsing other contributions with their time and whatever else they may toss in or sell at a discount. The fact that they are on the phone with Mark trying to build a motor more suited to his needs was something I read as a contribution from them.

I added to the pot with the notion that we were going to get Mark a better motor. It looks to me like that's exactly what's happening, only in a better way than what was originally represented.

Gut check, let's make sure I have this right:

Originally represented: A motor that, with a little work and some parts replacements, had some potential to put down the 400hp that Mark really needs to be competitive.

Currently in the works: A motor that will basically drop in and meet Mark's needs.

Did I miss something there? It sounds like the deal has been sweetened to me. I signed up to support the goal. If Tim, Todd, Mark, and Erik are all working together to meet the goal, as set forth by Mark in their conference calls, how can that be a bad thing?

Bottom line for me on this is, if Mark is happy with the result I'm happy with the result.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained. I think that all involved in the part of this deal where the rubber meets the road are stand-up guys who will do the right thing. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong... but I don't think I am.

FlyingDog

"Larry" you're still several pages behind... catch up or go away.

Erik, did you catch that part of that 911 URL is "vwContent"

hacker-pschorr

If you think that is interesting, wait until you see the pictures I'm going to post.

GlenL

Damn, and I didn't bring the popcorn.


I put in a token amount cause, well, I've got my own problems. But I will offer some guidance.

Take a step back and do a clear assesment of what you want to do and how much it will cost. If there's not enough $ for that then figure out what can be done for the money at hand.

What I'm afraid of is aspirations exceeding resources and the whole thing collapsing into an expensive pile of failure. (As a manager of engineering projects, this is a daily burden)

Re-reading the engine-for-sale post the seller (That'd be Tim) is guardedly optimistic about the engine. Running it as-is may work. If it doesn't then the project is still a crank and rods ahead, which seems to be where the other path is leading.

Opinion on proceding: Pull a piston or three and checking for wear. If it looks good, then go with the existing block/crank/rods/pistons.

Sab

This maybe a stupid question, but I'll ask it anyway.
Since aparently the engine was designed to be supercharged, why not drop it in, see how much HP can come out of it as is and then supercharge it if more power is needed?

Joe '87 S4

I don't see the problem here. The fund raiser was to raise money towards a more powerful engine. It seems the parties involved are working towards that goal. As soon as the old engine comes out of the car, anything that goes back in will not be stock - a concept my 3 year old nephew could grasp I'm sure. Frankly I could care less if the new engine is Nikasiled or vagisiled as long as it's better then the one that came out of the car. The fund raiser was a great 928 community venture. The bickering now just puts a damper on it.

AO

Holy crap... gald I didn't stay up last night.

Hey Matt, it seems painfully obvious that you're not happy with the direction this is going. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see a clear line of reasoning why you think this is the wrong direction. Maybe it's there, but truthfully at this point I don't care. Your attacks on other members is a bit disturbing to me and seems out of character for you. I know you're passionate about this stuff and quite knowledgeable to boot. But it appears that Mark, Murphy and co. have this under control and you are in the vocal minority (right or wrong).

If for some reason this is not what you thought you signed up for, I'm sure Erik can get your donation back to you as long as you agree to step aside. I don't intend this to be a flame, just a solution to a situation which appears to be deteriorating rapidly.

hacker-pschorr

Way ahead of you – everything will be laid out before anything actually happens. With Todd’s experience and Tim’s connections, there should be no hidden “surprise” costs associated with this. It’s hard to explain what goes on inside of Todd’s head or his garage. This is what he does & he is onboard 110%.
Todd doesn’t pull the trigger on any project until he knows everything, and I mean everything. He knows what the budget is, what the desired outcome is etc….He poured his heart and soul into this project (not to mention a countless number of test mules engines).
That was one of the initial ideas – bolt it in, lets see what happens. Mark is obviously more interested in plan B. So that is what we plan on helping him with.
We did on the sister motor that was running in Todd’s car. What we found is what led to Tim’s post explaining why he is “guardedly optimistic” as you put it, about this motor. Now keep in mind, Todd’s standards are a few notches higher than I’m sure most people when it comes to inspecting engines. Maybe this setup would run forever in Mark’s race car – it really doesn’t matter sine Mark does not want to run a 6.1 with 9:1 compression.
I’m guessing SCCA class rules come into play here.

FlyingDog

I wish I hadn't. I'm exhausted and the soda machine here is broken so no caffeine and sugar for me.Not happy with the change in direction. The current direction would have been fine if that was the original explained intent. Nobody else seemed to care either since most of what I said was ignored, hence the "roloesque" comment. The only person attacked was "Larry" since all he does on Rennlist is hide behind a fake name while attacking other members or blindly defending Tim (whether or not Tim is actually being attacked).As I said repeatedly (but like you, nobody else cared to pay attention) I'm sure Tim and Todd will build a great engine. The one they built seems to be pretty damned good. The only problem is the (for lack of a better term) bait and switch. Maybe Mark will get a better engine in the end, maybe he won't (he probably will). It's the change after the money has been collected that is the point.

I sent my money because I wanted to. Actually, the reason I waited so long to send it is because I saw this coming... I just figured once the $5k+ had been collected, the configuration was (close to) set. I guess I was wrong. Keep my money, but make sure it goes towards beer and not any of that Nikasil crap.

hacker-pschorr

This is what is pissing me and a lot of other people off around here.

Bait and Switch? Ok, maybe not the best term, but you used it. You have an issue with Mark since he does not want to use the engine we raised money for. Why don't you express this to Mark via a PM? You act like Tim is refusing to release the motor unless Mark “upgrades it”. That is BS and you know it.
WTF is your deal here? Nobody is trying to rip off anyone – nobody from this camp is gaining anything. In fact, Tim is loosing his *** in this deal, and you have the nerve to say he’s baiting Mark and the group? I don’t even want to know how much Todd is out at this point.

Trust me when I say Tim would be happy to box up the motor as it is right now – ship it to Mark and walk away. Tim, Todd and I have committed to countless number of hours helping him receive the best engine for his needs.

Not sure how to take this, the winky eye smiley could go both ways here.
You have a few weeks before anything really happens with this project. Why don’t you put your time where your mouth is, contact Mahle and find us a set of pistons they will guarantee 100% will work with this block. Make sure they know this is a 100% race engine.

Good luck. If you succeed it will greatly benefit the 928 world. If you do not, well, nothing lost but your time.

Tom. M

Just couple of points to fuel the fire....

Adam B (with some of my assistance) rebuilt the original Rear Turbo cars motor (red 89S4). It was decided to use nickasil on this motor and reduce CR to 9:0 to 1. The motor was also slightly bored to 101mm (4"). This opened up a lot of choices as far as pistons go.. I heard through the grapevine that the baseline dyno numbers on this motor are pretty good given the 9.0 to 1 CR (I'll let JT (owner) post details if he chooses)... The car has just over 2k miles so far...and one track day..so far so good...but it's just getting broken in....

Adam on his personal build (6.5 stroker) has decided to go with the original alusil..and bored his block to 104 (with the proper suennen hone machine techniques etc.) ...... He is still waiting on pistons...that is the final piece of the puzzle...been waiting for a long time....

WHich is better?...well..nickasil has been used in Joe Fans car for racing..so far so good....It does have less friction than the alusil..so thats a plus...but no real long term data..
The alusil..has great long term data...but seems getting pistons is a tough proposition (outside of using 968's of course..if you can find them)..

Either way..will be interesting to see all these data come together.....

P.S. I really want to see the Holbert motor when it is out...gotta figure out what they did in that thing to make it so strong....

Later,
Tom
89GT

Tim Murphy

Erik, find out how much he donated so we know how much beer to buy

Matt, I can appreciate your concerns and you have to believe us when we say this is all going to be done with everyone’s best interest.

The generosity of the Rennlist community puts everyone involved in this sponsorship venture in a position to make sure that Mark gets what is best for him. We have a $7500 budget to work with to make it happen and any additional cost incurred will most likely come out of my pocket because that is the way it was presented and I am a man of my word. Mark and I will work out the details but that should not be a concern to you or anyone else.

I understand you have your opinions on how an engine should be built just as we have our opinions. I hope you are not offended but we are going to do it our way so your opinions are no longer required, if you don't mind.

Try not to take too much of the fun out of it, this is going to be an exciting project for the entire community to enjoy.