N-Tune
04-07-2013, 12:03 AM
#496
Race Car
You obviously havnt been paying attention. There have been threads with back to back dyno comparisons. I'm not sure what you why you would have an issue with someone converting an antiquated "AFM vane meter" to a true MAF coded _not emulated_ setup.
It's not all about just making high rpm power ( even though there is and increase) Drive ability is much improved.
It is far from just "pushing timing" as you say.
I have witnessed the gains on the dyno first hand throughout the whole process. From just MAF code, to timing, to exhaust, to cam timing.
This is far from what has been done in the past I can assure you.
I do agree that in the past, most chips were just a few small changes to timing, and some were trying to emulate the AFM signal. Like I said, this is quite a bit different, with the DME code being mostly re-written to truly understand a MAF sensor.
On an NA the gains are small, but are there.
Not to mention that with the logger/tuner, you can fine tune your combination to peak performance.
If you want to get technical, or see the dyno graphs (they may be in other threads, I don't remember) maybe Josh can answer any questions you may have.
I understand you may have seen the chip makers bamboozle people over the years in your world as well, but like I said, it's quite a bit different. Has anyone re-written the code to the cars you mention to truly directly understand the MAF transfer function? Or to go further, understand that along with a map sensor for forced induction? Or to go even further, to add those things along with the capability to read, log, process the serial data from the various sensors? And to even add one more question... To be able to change fuel and timing maps yourself?
Hopefully, you will be open minded and not throw this system together with all the past crap.
Sincerely
Sid
It's not all about just making high rpm power ( even though there is and increase) Drive ability is much improved.
It is far from just "pushing timing" as you say.
I have witnessed the gains on the dyno first hand throughout the whole process. From just MAF code, to timing, to exhaust, to cam timing.
This is far from what has been done in the past I can assure you.
I do agree that in the past, most chips were just a few small changes to timing, and some were trying to emulate the AFM signal. Like I said, this is quite a bit different, with the DME code being mostly re-written to truly understand a MAF sensor.
On an NA the gains are small, but are there.
Not to mention that with the logger/tuner, you can fine tune your combination to peak performance.
If you want to get technical, or see the dyno graphs (they may be in other threads, I don't remember) maybe Josh can answer any questions you may have.
I understand you may have seen the chip makers bamboozle people over the years in your world as well, but like I said, it's quite a bit different. Has anyone re-written the code to the cars you mention to truly directly understand the MAF transfer function? Or to go further, understand that along with a map sensor for forced induction? Or to go even further, to add those things along with the capability to read, log, process the serial data from the various sensors? And to even add one more question... To be able to change fuel and timing maps yourself?
Hopefully, you will be open minded and not throw this system together with all the past crap.
Sincerely
Sid
04-07-2013, 12:08 AM
#497
Three Wheelin'
So where are the data, e.g. dyno runs, to indicate the independent effects
of each variable in this mod, i.e. the MAF, the timing map changes, and the
fuel map changes? Combined effects based on dyno runs are of no value
in determining the true independent effect of the key promoted 'performance'
product, i.e. the MAF.
This type of mod has been hyped for the 911 3.2 and the 964 to max the
selling price versus just selling a 'performance' chip. When tested, the
data indicated that the MAF versus an AFM results in little to no gains
by itself. As with most 'performance' mods for stock engines, it's all about
'pushing' the timing.
Read here about 'performance' tuning:
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...-the-myth.html
And then read here to see how the ignition maps are 'pushed':
http://www.systemsc.com/tests.htm
of each variable in this mod, i.e. the MAF, the timing map changes, and the
fuel map changes? Combined effects based on dyno runs are of no value
in determining the true independent effect of the key promoted 'performance'
product, i.e. the MAF.
This type of mod has been hyped for the 911 3.2 and the 964 to max the
selling price versus just selling a 'performance' chip. When tested, the
data indicated that the MAF versus an AFM results in little to no gains
by itself. As with most 'performance' mods for stock engines, it's all about
'pushing' the timing.
Read here about 'performance' tuning:
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...-the-myth.html
And then read here to see how the ignition maps are 'pushed':
http://www.systemsc.com/tests.htm
04-07-2013, 12:27 AM
#498
Race Car
04-07-2013, 12:37 AM
#499
Three Wheelin'
Sid, its a spambot, I just reported it before. it duplicates a post already posted and adds dead img links to make curious people try and open and see them. I dont know where these ones take you but rennlist is plagued with this type of bot spam. they are always the same 3-4 dead img links and about 6-8 posts. you can check their previous posts and you'll see the they're the same format.
https://rennlist.com/forums/search.p...rchid=12252966
and notice all the posts are a minute apart.
https://rennlist.com/forums/search.p...rchid=12252966
and notice all the posts are a minute apart.
04-07-2013, 01:17 AM
#500
Addict
Rennlist Member
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Small Business Partner
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With all the R&D, other projects and being a newly-wed, Josh's doing an amazing job in a Cottage industry. I'm impressed by his success and the response this forum has generated towards his product. I'm just getting caught up on my restoration of my '87 and the kit is definitely on my list of things to add. Good on ya, Josh.
I already have provided the data to prove him wrong, but I will do it more explicitly. Not because he will learn from it, but that way others will will understand without doubt.
04-07-2013, 01:52 AM
#501
Addict
Rennlist Member
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Small Business Partner
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So where are the data, e.g. dyno runs, to indicate the independent effects
of each variable in this mod, i.e. the MAF, the timing map changes, and the
fuel map changes? Combined effects based on dyno runs are of no value
in determining the true independent effect of the key promoted 'performance'
product, i.e. the MAF.
This type of mod has been hyped for the 911 3.2 and the 964 to max the
selling price versus just selling a 'performance' chip. When tested, the
data indicated that the MAF versus an AFM results in little to no gains
by itself. As with most 'performance' mods for stock engines, it's all about
'pushing' the timing.
Read here about 'performance' tuning:
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...-the-myth.html
And then read here to see how the ignition maps are 'pushed':
http://www.systemsc.com/tests.htm
of each variable in this mod, i.e. the MAF, the timing map changes, and the
fuel map changes? Combined effects based on dyno runs are of no value
in determining the true independent effect of the key promoted 'performance'
product, i.e. the MAF.
This type of mod has been hyped for the 911 3.2 and the 964 to max the
selling price versus just selling a 'performance' chip. When tested, the
data indicated that the MAF versus an AFM results in little to no gains
by itself. As with most 'performance' mods for stock engines, it's all about
'pushing' the timing.
Read here about 'performance' tuning:
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...-the-myth.html
And then read here to see how the ignition maps are 'pushed':
http://www.systemsc.com/tests.htm
I can easily do an 'isolation' dyno, where the only thing we test is the MAF vs AFM, and no other changes. However, any reasonable person can take one look at the dyno plots and see gains that simply are not possible with a chip-only solution (regardless of fuel & timing changes). In-fact, I've even put out a challenge on multiple boards, stating that there is no chip-only solution which can match the NA-Tune % gains for power & torque.
So, if you were correct in stating that a MAF had little to no gains, then matching the gains shown on the dyno with just a chip-only solution would be easy, right?
Furthermore, stating that I sell 944 MAF kit in order to increase the selling price is both incredibly ignorant and insulting.
The 944MAF kit is $500. Are you really trying to state that I did custom-molded MAF housings, MAF sensors, plug-n-play wiring (which requires unavailable, thus custom-molded plugs), and chipboard (not your normal $5 chip), and put everything together by hand to raise my margins..? Hell, my margin on this kit is magnitudes lower than those selling just a $5 chip, and it takes significantly more of my time.
And that doesn't even cover my investment costs!
Regardless, I will see about setting up another dyno session next weekend... I can easily log both AFRs, and timing advance during the runs using my DME Logger:
DME Logger
Furthermore, I can show the difference between your so-called 'pushed-timing' and factory timing, by directly changing the DME timing maps in real-time, using my DME Tuner:
DME Tuner
From what I've read from you both here on Rennlist and other sites, I doubt you are open-minded enough to learn beyond your own pomposity...
Others who might be doubtful will benefit from the test - so for them, I will conduct the tests and post the resulting data.
04-07-2013, 09:36 AM
#502
Rennlist Member
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So where are the data, e.g. dyno runs, to indicate the independent effects
of each variable in this mod, i.e. the MAF, the timing map changes, and the
fuel map changes? Combined effects based on dyno runs are of no value
in determining the true independent effect of the key promoted 'performance'
product, i.e. the MAF.
This type of mod has been hyped for the 911 3.2 and the 964 to max the
selling price versus just selling a 'performance' chip. When tested, the
data indicated that the MAF versus an AFM results in little to no gains
by itself. As with most 'performance' mods for stock engines, it's all about
'pushing' the timing.
Read here about 'performance' tuning:
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...-the-myth.html
And then read here to see how the ignition maps are 'pushed':
http://www.systemsc.com/tests.htm
of each variable in this mod, i.e. the MAF, the timing map changes, and the
fuel map changes? Combined effects based on dyno runs are of no value
in determining the true independent effect of the key promoted 'performance'
product, i.e. the MAF.
This type of mod has been hyped for the 911 3.2 and the 964 to max the
selling price versus just selling a 'performance' chip. When tested, the
data indicated that the MAF versus an AFM results in little to no gains
by itself. As with most 'performance' mods for stock engines, it's all about
'pushing' the timing.
Read here about 'performance' tuning:
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...-the-myth.html
And then read here to see how the ignition maps are 'pushed':
http://www.systemsc.com/tests.htm
I will make no claim I understand all the voodoo involved with tuning. I am a old school bigger carb, bigger cam, gearhead.
I do know this, I really like mine, and after several thousand miles with it I still note the difference it makes my car feel every time I drive it.
michael
04-07-2013, 01:10 PM
#504
The links in the post are fixed:
https://rennlist.com/forums/911-foru...-the-myth.html
http://www.systemsc.com/tests.htm
"I have witnessed the gains on the dyno first hand throughout the whole process. From just MAF code, to timing, to exhaust, to cam timing."
The post was about a stock engine. More fuel without more air, e.g. forced air, yields NO increase
in torque! It has been shown that the AFM provides basically no air restriction compared to the MAF.
And once the AFRs are within a few points of the ideal, little to NO increase in torque results.
It doesn't matter whether one is talking about carbs, CIS, or EFI. That's the reality!
So the basic reality for a STOCK engine to show a 'performance' gain is to 'push' the
ignition timing.
"On an NA the gains are small, but are there."
Right, basically negligible and not worth the effort.
"Has anyone re-written the code to the cars you mention to truly directly understand the MAF transfer function?"
It's not about re-writing code, it's about engine thermodynamics.
https://rennlist.com/forums/911-foru...-the-myth.html
http://www.systemsc.com/tests.htm
"I have witnessed the gains on the dyno first hand throughout the whole process. From just MAF code, to timing, to exhaust, to cam timing."
The post was about a stock engine. More fuel without more air, e.g. forced air, yields NO increase
in torque! It has been shown that the AFM provides basically no air restriction compared to the MAF.
And once the AFRs are within a few points of the ideal, little to NO increase in torque results.
It doesn't matter whether one is talking about carbs, CIS, or EFI. That's the reality!
So the basic reality for a STOCK engine to show a 'performance' gain is to 'push' the
ignition timing.
"On an NA the gains are small, but are there."
Right, basically negligible and not worth the effort.
"Has anyone re-written the code to the cars you mention to truly directly understand the MAF transfer function?"
It's not about re-writing code, it's about engine thermodynamics.
04-07-2013, 01:25 PM
#505
The links in the post are fixed:
https://rennlist.com/forums/911-foru...-the-myth.html
http://www.systemsc.com/tests.htm
"I have witnessed the gains on the dyno first hand throughout the whole process. From just MAF code, to timing, to exhaust, to cam timing."
The post was about a stock engine. More fuel without more air, e.g. forced air, yields NO increase
in torque! It has been shown that the AFM provides basically no air restriction compared to the MAF.
And once the AFRs are within a few points of the ideal, little to NO increase in torque results.
That's the reality! So the basic reality for a STOCK engine to show a 'performance' gain
is to 'push' the ignition timing.
"On an NA the gains are small, but are there."
Right, basically negligible and not worth the effort.
"Has anyone re-written the code to the cars you mention to truly directly understand the MAF transfer function?"
It's not about re-writing code, it's about engine thermodynamics.
https://rennlist.com/forums/911-foru...-the-myth.html
http://www.systemsc.com/tests.htm
"I have witnessed the gains on the dyno first hand throughout the whole process. From just MAF code, to timing, to exhaust, to cam timing."
The post was about a stock engine. More fuel without more air, e.g. forced air, yields NO increase
in torque! It has been shown that the AFM provides basically no air restriction compared to the MAF.
And once the AFRs are within a few points of the ideal, little to NO increase in torque results.
That's the reality! So the basic reality for a STOCK engine to show a 'performance' gain
is to 'push' the ignition timing.
"On an NA the gains are small, but are there."
Right, basically negligible and not worth the effort.
"Has anyone re-written the code to the cars you mention to truly directly understand the MAF transfer function?"
It's not about re-writing code, it's about engine thermodynamics.
04-07-2013, 01:33 PM
#506
"Do you have a 944 or variant?"
Actually, many of my customers own 924/944s. There are probably more
here in SoCal than anywhere else, as is the case for all Porsches.
Actually, many of my customers own 924/944s. There are probably more
here in SoCal than anywhere else, as is the case for all Porsches.
04-07-2013, 03:27 PM
#507
Nordschleife Master
Unless you can provide actual data to counter Josh's actual data, I don't see why you are here.
Its not an attack against you, what you do, your business, or anything personal. Josh provides hard evidence for his products. Not rumors, or feelings, or what he "thinks" the results are. Solid proof. Unless you can counter that with work you have done, or even actual work someone else has done, and can provide the evidence (hard data) to prove it... Then what you say is nothing but hearsay, and carries no value.
04-07-2013, 04:04 PM
#508
At the very least Josh has provided us a replacement part for a wearable piece. The AFM has a known issue- the arm wearing a track pattern. It's also a replacement part that is being asked for on any and every Porsche forum you find.
So again, why do you care how we spend our money?
04-07-2013, 04:57 PM
#509
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist
Small Business Partner
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However, I do. And I've put both the AFM and MAF on the flowbench. The AFM is a HUGE restriction compared to the MAF!
The very fact that you made this erroneous claim immediately tells me that you have never put the AFM on a flowbench, or you would have known better.
On a 150hp car, there isn't going to be massive hp gains. But if looked at the % change, then the gains are undeniable (well undeniable for anyone besides you).
Quoting thermodynamics when you don't understand the basic premise of airflow through the AFM vs MAF - brilliant!
