Track car; 928 vs. 951
08-26-2007, 09:14 AM
#16
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08-26-2007, 10:58 AM
#17
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08-26-2007, 12:25 PM
#18
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928 wins hands down, because they can really haul a$$.
there is only 2 928's that are competitive in racing that I know about it, Mark K. and Mark R. , there are more 951's owners racing their cars out there that's for sure. Also the average street driven 951 has at least chips, that will put them ahead of most of the 928's out in the street except the gts. The middly modded turbos put down about 300-350rwhp, the highly 450+ rwhp upto 550rwhp, what else can I say? If you have never driven a turbo don't say anything, there is no substitute for boost.
there is only 2 928's that are competitive in racing that I know about it, Mark K. and Mark R. , there are more 951's owners racing their cars out there that's for sure. Also the average street driven 951 has at least chips, that will put them ahead of most of the 928's out in the street except the gts. The middly modded turbos put down about 300-350rwhp, the highly 450+ rwhp upto 550rwhp, what else can I say? If you have never driven a turbo don't say anything, there is no substitute for boost.
and 
at the same time
08-26-2007, 12:58 PM
#20
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By "track car", do you mean that you'll be doing competitive racing with it or flogging it at DEs?
Were it me, I'd choose a 951 out of those two. Partly, because they are lighter, partly because there has to be a reason you see far more of them on the track than 928s... but mainly because, quite frankly, I'm more familiar with the 951 than the 928, which means that it would be easier for me to purchase, repair and maintain one. I hear that the 928s are more expensive to maintain, but the 928 people tend to tell me that the cars really aren't that bad so I suppose that price may ultimately be a wash. Best bet is to probably drive both cars (if you haven't already) and see which car you prefer. If you still cannot decide, keep your search open for both cars and purchase the best candidate you find.
That said, my track flogger is going to be a Miata.
BB.
Were it me, I'd choose a 951 out of those two. Partly, because they are lighter, partly because there has to be a reason you see far more of them on the track than 928s... but mainly because, quite frankly, I'm more familiar with the 951 than the 928, which means that it would be easier for me to purchase, repair and maintain one. I hear that the 928s are more expensive to maintain, but the 928 people tend to tell me that the cars really aren't that bad so I suppose that price may ultimately be a wash. Best bet is to probably drive both cars (if you haven't already) and see which car you prefer. If you still cannot decide, keep your search open for both cars and purchase the best candidate you find.
That said, my track flogger is going to be a Miata.
BB.
08-26-2007, 02:24 PM
#21
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You could put 5 grand into a 951 and get over 400WHP (intake, exhaust, boost control, internals). You could put 5 grand into a 928 and make 500WHP+ (twin-screw, intercooler, 951 pistons).
Really your matter of preference.
Really your matter of preference.
08-26-2007, 02:36 PM
#22
If we compare the horsepower to weight ratio, with both cars on a good diet, which has a better number (done on a reasonable budget)?
I know it depends on how much money, and what years of vehicle....so lets compare two 300 hp cars, can the 928 weigh close to 2200 lbs? I think the 944 can be close to that weight.
I know it depends on how much money, and what years of vehicle....so lets compare two 300 hp cars, can the 928 weigh close to 2200 lbs? I think the 944 can be close to that weight.
08-26-2007, 02:41 PM
#23
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There's a spreadsheet around here somewhere that details the weight of a 944 and how much you can shave off by doing different things. It would be a great resource for figuring out how much you can practically lose and what you'd have to do to lose it.
But considering that the 951 was something like 2.8-2.9k pounds (IIRC), knocking off 600-700 pounds would likely require more than just stripping parts out.
BB.
But considering that the 951 was something like 2.8-2.9k pounds (IIRC), knocking off 600-700 pounds would likely require more than just stripping parts out.
BB.
08-26-2007, 03:05 PM
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Dude, where do you get all this info? 3200lbs for a 928 wtf? the weight of a Turbo S is about 3100lbs. I would like to know if you know these things to be a fact or are they asumptions. Because asumption is the mother of al f%^$ ups.
08-26-2007, 03:22 PM
#26
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The 928 has tracked the fastest times every recorded of the two on the race track. either heavily modified or in a stock engine form. However when using the bone head PCA rules that seem to disregard some of the most basic elements of classing cars (i.e. absolute weight and HP to weight ratios combined, as last i looked racing incorporating braking and cornering, not just acceleration) you begin to understand that when both cars are gutted only, the 928 is a faster car, in the turns and under braking.
Ive heavily raced a 928 for over 10 years now. the current S4 i have, has the original engine, never been opened and it has over 90 racing days on the engine! 1:39.0 at Laguna seca, 1:47.9 at Sears point and thats on DOTs.
If you have heard of a 944 turbo even 5 years newer, that is even close, please tell me about it. however, to date, no 944t is even close without major mods to get it over the 360rwhp range.
The fastest modified 928 runs 1:30.8 at Laguna seca and has had 4 top 10 finishes in Speed world challenge GT. It also has run 2:17s at Road america and 1:39.9 at Sears point. the main mod for this car is the stroker engine (ironically, 968 pistons and a stroker crank to get 420 to 485rwhp)
as was mentioned, the key differnetiator is the F1 inspired full coilover suspension and the width of the car. it accomidates much wider tires in stock form, and with its aluminum body panels is a very light platform when you strip out the luxury items like dual air conditioners (it is a 4 seater ), leather everything and seeemingly bullet proof chassis insulation. once that all is taken out, its a 2500lb to 2700lb racer with as much HP as you can afford that is very dependable. 550hp out of a 6.5 liter or 400hp out of the stock 5 liter vs pumping up a 944T 2.5 liter is another advantage due to life expectancy.
Both are fantastic cars, and ive seen some pretty fast modified 944Ts. both cars have great performance values, but lets face it, the 1986 928 was the fastest production car in the world, running 180mph at nardo in bone stock form. It also cost in the $50 to 70,000 range.
as for a cheap racer, there is no comparison in the world with a 928. however, once you start dumping in cash, both can be made pretty fast.
Now, all this said, im biased a little with the 928, having owned, built and raced them for years. in reality, my biggest competition is with the BMWs, which certainly should be on par with the 944T. some of them are in the 2300 to 2550lb range and when they get near 300rwhp, they are pretty tough. If a 944t can get 400rwhp and weigh in the 2500lb range, it clearly can be faster than what ive been racing. the question becomes, what does it take to make 360 to 400rwhp and make it race dependable as well as being able to put decent size rubber on it? obviously, just a chip to pound out more boost and HP is very attractive, compared to bolting on a new short block to a 928
mk
Ive heavily raced a 928 for over 10 years now. the current S4 i have, has the original engine, never been opened and it has over 90 racing days on the engine! 1:39.0 at Laguna seca, 1:47.9 at Sears point and thats on DOTs.
If you have heard of a 944 turbo even 5 years newer, that is even close, please tell me about it. however, to date, no 944t is even close without major mods to get it over the 360rwhp range.
The fastest modified 928 runs 1:30.8 at Laguna seca and has had 4 top 10 finishes in Speed world challenge GT. It also has run 2:17s at Road america and 1:39.9 at Sears point. the main mod for this car is the stroker engine (ironically, 968 pistons and a stroker crank to get 420 to 485rwhp)
as was mentioned, the key differnetiator is the F1 inspired full coilover suspension and the width of the car. it accomidates much wider tires in stock form, and with its aluminum body panels is a very light platform when you strip out the luxury items like dual air conditioners (it is a 4 seater ), leather everything and seeemingly bullet proof chassis insulation. once that all is taken out, its a 2500lb to 2700lb racer with as much HP as you can afford that is very dependable. 550hp out of a 6.5 liter or 400hp out of the stock 5 liter vs pumping up a 944T 2.5 liter is another advantage due to life expectancy.
Both are fantastic cars, and ive seen some pretty fast modified 944Ts. both cars have great performance values, but lets face it, the 1986 928 was the fastest production car in the world, running 180mph at nardo in bone stock form. It also cost in the $50 to 70,000 range.
as for a cheap racer, there is no comparison in the world with a 928. however, once you start dumping in cash, both can be made pretty fast.
Now, all this said, im biased a little with the 928, having owned, built and raced them for years. in reality, my biggest competition is with the BMWs, which certainly should be on par with the 944T. some of them are in the 2300 to 2550lb range and when they get near 300rwhp, they are pretty tough. If a 944t can get 400rwhp and weigh in the 2500lb range, it clearly can be faster than what ive been racing. the question becomes, what does it take to make 360 to 400rwhp and make it race dependable as well as being able to put decent size rubber on it? obviously, just a chip to pound out more boost and HP is very attractive, compared to bolting on a new short block to a 928
mk
08-26-2007, 03:39 PM
#27
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The 928 has tracked the fastest times every recorded of the two on the race track. either heavily modified or in a stock engine form. However when using the bone head PCA rules that seem to disregard some of the most basic elements of classing cars (i.e. absolute weight and HP to weight ratios combined, as last i looked racing incorporating braking and cornering, not just acceleration) you begin to understand that when both cars are gutted only, the 928 is a faster car, in the turns and under braking.
Ive heavily raced a 928 for over 10 years now. the current S4 i have, has the original engine, never been opened and it has over 90 racing days on the engine! 1:39.0 at Laguna seca, 1:47.9 at Sears point and thats on DOTs.
If you have heard of a 944 turbo even 5 years newer, that is even close, please tell me about it. however, to date, no 944t is even close without major mods to get it over the 360rwhp range.
The fastest modified 928 runs 1:30.8 at Laguna seca and has had 4 top 10 finishes in Speed world challenge GT. It also has run 2:17s at Road america and 1:39.9 at Sears point. the main mod for this car is the stroker engine (ironically, 968 pistons and a stroker crank to get 420 to 485rwhp)
as was mentioned, the key differnetiator is the F1 inspired full coilover suspension and the width of the car. it accomidates much wider tires in stock form, and with its aluminum body panels is a very light platform when you strip out the luxury items like dual air conditioners (it is a 4 seater ), leather everything and seeemingly bullet proof chassis insulation. once that all is taken out, its a 2500lb to 2700lb racer with as much HP as you can afford that is very dependable. 550hp out of a 6.5 liter or 400hp out of the stock 5 liter vs pumping up a 944T 2.5 liter is another advantage due to live expectancy.
Both are fantastic cars, and ive seen some pretty fast modified 944Ts. both cars have great performance values, but lets face it, the 1986 928 was the fastest production car in the world, running 180mph at nardo in bone stock form. It also cost in the $50 to 70,000 range.
as for a cheap racer, there is no comparison in the world with a 928. however, once you start dumping in cash, both can be made pretty fast.
mk
Ive heavily raced a 928 for over 10 years now. the current S4 i have, has the original engine, never been opened and it has over 90 racing days on the engine! 1:39.0 at Laguna seca, 1:47.9 at Sears point and thats on DOTs.
If you have heard of a 944 turbo even 5 years newer, that is even close, please tell me about it. however, to date, no 944t is even close without major mods to get it over the 360rwhp range.
The fastest modified 928 runs 1:30.8 at Laguna seca and has had 4 top 10 finishes in Speed world challenge GT. It also has run 2:17s at Road america and 1:39.9 at Sears point. the main mod for this car is the stroker engine (ironically, 968 pistons and a stroker crank to get 420 to 485rwhp)
as was mentioned, the key differnetiator is the F1 inspired full coilover suspension and the width of the car. it accomidates much wider tires in stock form, and with its aluminum body panels is a very light platform when you strip out the luxury items like dual air conditioners (it is a 4 seater ), leather everything and seeemingly bullet proof chassis insulation. once that all is taken out, its a 2500lb to 2700lb racer with as much HP as you can afford that is very dependable. 550hp out of a 6.5 liter or 400hp out of the stock 5 liter vs pumping up a 944T 2.5 liter is another advantage due to live expectancy.
Both are fantastic cars, and ive seen some pretty fast modified 944Ts. both cars have great performance values, but lets face it, the 1986 928 was the fastest production car in the world, running 180mph at nardo in bone stock form. It also cost in the $50 to 70,000 range.
as for a cheap racer, there is no comparison in the world with a 928. however, once you start dumping in cash, both can be made pretty fast.
mk
Mark, you own one of the few (2) known 928 race cars that I know that are actually faster than race prepped 951's. But perhaps it has do to more with te driver's skill, who knows. 928 are scarce in pca events, maybe yours in the fastest , but what about the rest? lol.
If you have heard of a 944 turbo even 5 years newer, that is even close, please tell me about it. however, to date, no 944t is even close without major mods to get it over the 360rwhp range.
I would like to see your car compare in another tracks with some of the back east gt2's and gt3's 951's.
08-26-2007, 03:44 PM
#29
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08-26-2007, 04:08 PM
#30
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Mr. Kibort, check this one out and it's not even a 400rwh 951.
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...&highlight=gt3
what's your time at watkins glenn mr. Kibort?
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...&highlight=gt3
what's your time at watkins glenn mr. Kibort?
Last edited by lart951; 08-26-2007 at 04:24 PM.