Track car; 928 vs. 951
08-27-2007, 08:45 PM
#61
Rennlist Member
yeah, but try and fit the second set in the car!! I dont think you can do that. someone above said they did a second set of what was probably near stock tire sizes, in a 944, but that was with only a roll bar. Id like to see that with a full cage!
ugly spaceship??? reallly? ouch that hurts. (but at least not my wallet!
)
mk
ugly spaceship??? reallly? ouch that hurts. (but at least not my wallet!
)mk
08-27-2007, 09:23 PM
#62
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
yeah, but try and fit the second set in the car!! I dont think you can do that. someone above said they did a second set of what was probably near stock tire sizes, in a 944, but that was with only a roll bar. Id like to see that with a full cage!
ugly spaceship??? reallly? ouch that hurts. (but at least not my wallet!)
mk
ugly spaceship??? reallly? ouch that hurts. (but at least not my wallet!
)mk
probably the picture in my last post didn't show..
http://www.moj-album.com/slike/59915...oydZwAggL7.jpg
here are 4 17" wheels two 255 and two 215 that fit in the trunk of 944 and the hatch was fully closed.
08-27-2007, 10:07 PM
#64
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This is pretty petty if we're down to discussing who can haul more tires.
Stock for stock, the 944 is a smaller, more tossable car than the 928. There is no disputing it. Even most streetable 944s don't drive like my 83 with manual steering, 951S sways, Konis, and AC delete. My uncle's S2 feels like a Panzer compared to my car, and it probably weighs in at 3-400 lbs less than a 928. I love that car, but I would really miss the fun that the 83 offers.
Stock for stock, the 944 is a smaller, more tossable car than the 928. There is no disputing it. Even most streetable 944s don't drive like my 83 with manual steering, 951S sways, Konis, and AC delete. My uncle's S2 feels like a Panzer compared to my car, and it probably weighs in at 3-400 lbs less than a 928. I love that car, but I would really miss the fun that the 83 offers.
08-27-2007, 10:38 PM
#65
Nordschleife Master
I agree with joel, the steering feel on my old 83 without power steering was great. The 944 is better prepped for twisty racing (infineon) because of its handling abilities. The 928 -a few cheeseburgers would be best for more round track like daytona and - a few burritos too and it will be good for all racing. I've looked at a few 928s and I only like the s4 and gts models. The 951 is in a class of its own.
08-27-2007, 10:48 PM
#66
As for the last part, I don't think you have done much shopping.
08-27-2007, 10:55 PM
#67
Nordschleife Master
This is pretty petty if we're down to discussing who can haul more tires.
Stock for stock, the 944 is a smaller, more tossable car than the 928. There is no disputing it. Even most streetable 944s don't drive like my 83 with manual steering, 951S sways, Konis, and AC delete. My uncle's S2 feels like a Panzer compared to my car, and it probably weighs in at 3-400 lbs less than a 928. I love that car, but I would really miss the fun that the 83 offers.
Stock for stock, the 944 is a smaller, more tossable car than the 928. There is no disputing it. Even most streetable 944s don't drive like my 83 with manual steering, 951S sways, Konis, and AC delete. My uncle's S2 feels like a Panzer compared to my car, and it probably weighs in at 3-400 lbs less than a 928. I love that car, but I would really miss the fun that the 83 offers.
1983 FoFo baby! Toss in some headwork, crankwork, intake work, a 944S tranny and you have an extremely fun vehicle.
08-27-2007, 11:17 PM
#70
Nordschleife Master
08-27-2007, 11:49 PM
#72
Rennlist Member
i guess you missed my time at Sears Point as well. Ive been running under 1:50 there for 6 years. my usual time is in the 1:48-9s with a best of 1:47.8
Now, if what you say is true, there should be some 944 with similar mods that can keep up. However, there isnt. So, by the fact that the 928 runs pretty fast at Infinion, i would say that the 100lbs or so lighter 944 platform doesnt have any advantages, and never did. I remember when i was running a pretty stock 84 4.7 liter and would have great battles with David Standridge, (Owner of Rennworks now) who at the time had a pretty quick 944 turbo. as soon as i got the 5 liter stock engine, or the S4, that car was much slower!
keep in mind, this is about bang for the buck. or prep and performance with least amount of effort. (or which is a better choice for a race car)
Again, let the times of a stock 928 with a set of headers that can carry all its spare tires to the track 275/305s, and last 6 full race seasons and never have a DNF, with quite a few wins, is a testimate to the platform.
If you doubt any of this, come out and race me this weekend at Sears Point with the Vets, Cameros, BMWs, and supercharged S2000s. If you know any 944 that can run as fast as the 928S4 with $1000 worth of engine mods, lets hear about it.
Remember Lars Girsling? he ran world challenge GT in 2000. he ran a 1:44 at laguna Seca. 5 seconds off the mark of a bone stock 928S4, with a set of headers! by the way, i havent even aligned the car for 6 years either!
phone guys yellow 944T 1:42 at laguna. Dwane Dememt in a simular car, also 1:42ish. these were 360rwhp 944Ts with quite a bit of mods with them.
928S4 times at nor cal tracks:
1:39.0 at laguna
1:47.9 at Sears
2:01.6 Thunderhill (with hill)
Mk
Now, if what you say is true, there should be some 944 with similar mods that can keep up. However, there isnt. So, by the fact that the 928 runs pretty fast at Infinion, i would say that the 100lbs or so lighter 944 platform doesnt have any advantages, and never did. I remember when i was running a pretty stock 84 4.7 liter and would have great battles with David Standridge, (Owner of Rennworks now) who at the time had a pretty quick 944 turbo. as soon as i got the 5 liter stock engine, or the S4, that car was much slower!
keep in mind, this is about bang for the buck. or prep and performance with least amount of effort. (or which is a better choice for a race car)
Again, let the times of a stock 928 with a set of headers that can carry all its spare tires to the track 275/305s, and last 6 full race seasons and never have a DNF, with quite a few wins, is a testimate to the platform.
If you doubt any of this, come out and race me this weekend at Sears Point with the Vets, Cameros, BMWs, and supercharged S2000s. If you know any 944 that can run as fast as the 928S4 with $1000 worth of engine mods, lets hear about it.
Remember Lars Girsling? he ran world challenge GT in 2000. he ran a 1:44 at laguna Seca. 5 seconds off the mark of a bone stock 928S4, with a set of headers! by the way, i havent even aligned the car for 6 years either!
phone guys yellow 944T 1:42 at laguna. Dwane Dememt in a simular car, also 1:42ish. these were 360rwhp 944Ts with quite a bit of mods with them.
928S4 times at nor cal tracks:
1:39.0 at laguna
1:47.9 at Sears
2:01.6 Thunderhill (with hill)
Mk
I agree with joel, the steering feel on my old 83 without power steering was great. The 944 is better prepped for twisty racing (infineon) because of its handling abilities. The 928 -a few cheeseburgers would be best for more round track like daytona and - a few burritos too and it will be good for all racing. I've looked at a few 928s and I only like the s4 and gts models. The 951 is in a class of its own.
08-27-2007, 11:52 PM
#73
Rennlist Member
in street form yes, we are talking about race cars! once you strip them all and turn them into race cars, the playing field changes quite a bit. again, if this is true, there would be an equal modded 944 turbo that could post at time close to mine, but so far, over the last 6 years, there hasnt.
But, i agree. the heavy 928 street car, that is underspung and under tire'd, is a autobaun cruiser for those reasons alone. upgrade a few components, and you have a 200mph cruiser.
mk
But, i agree. the heavy 928 street car, that is underspung and under tire'd, is a autobaun cruiser for those reasons alone. upgrade a few components, and you have a 200mph cruiser.
mk
08-28-2007, 09:34 AM
#74
Rennlist Member
SeanR, I wasn't trying to say over all. I've seen some pristine 928s and some ratty 944s but for the money it's always seemed like you can ususaly get a better deal on a 951. Not always, but ususaly.
08-28-2007, 11:30 AM
#75
I dunno, I've seen enough ratty examples of both cars to question that statement. Its amazing what some folks will do with a car that cost as much as either of them did new.
If you want a track car, you can find a 951 in the $4-5k range and do a lot of maintenance to bring it up to snuff, or you can spend $6.5-7k and have a nicer car cosmetically but still get to do the same maintenance before taking it to the track (I've done this and can speak with some authority here). That doesn't include upgrades. You can also spend more for a well maintained 951 with records and probably some upgrades ($10+ range) and jump in it and drive, but I seen enough guys trying to make repairs in the paddock to not trust that method. You can also buy a fully prepped 951 race car, starting at around $13-14k and going upwards from there, and those cars are usually well sorted and ready to go, assuming you are buying from a track guy that knew what he was doing.
If you want to track a 928 (which I haven't done, so keep that in mind... I'm no expert on this), entry level for a ratty 928 is still around $4-5k, with much the same as a 951 in terms of maintenance (belts, bushings, etc) and then you add in such variables as radiator replacements that cost $1000+, and quite frankly, I just can't see where a 928 is going to cost any less than a 951. Properly maintained 928's seem to be selling for the $7500-10k range for earlier models and go up from there. Mark is telling us that he can do it for less and I have no reason to doubt him, but again, I haven't seen many folks tracking 928's in the midwest either, whereas 951's are one of the most popular track cars there.
If cheap racing is your thing, you ought to look into a 914.
Neither of the aforementioned examples includes such things as adding in roll cage costs, struts/shocks and tires, which would cost pretty much the same for either car.
One point I should make is that going to a track event for me means taking a car that has complete maintenance and will be as reliable as possible for the entire weekend. Yes, things can and do break when running a car hard, but showing up with shoestring repairs is a recipe for working on your car while others are racing, and thats something I prefer not to do. If the car isn't ready, I won't race.
Mark obviously "drank the koolaid" and is hardcore about his track time. He's in a different category from your average beginning track guy just looking to get into it, tho. (Hey Mark, thats a compliment, not an attack! lol) I think the best advice for the original poster is that pick which ever car you like or are most comfortable with and just go for it. Either will be a fine choice and both will have more capability than you will have skill as a driver.
Regards,
If you want a track car, you can find a 951 in the $4-5k range and do a lot of maintenance to bring it up to snuff, or you can spend $6.5-7k and have a nicer car cosmetically but still get to do the same maintenance before taking it to the track (I've done this and can speak with some authority here). That doesn't include upgrades. You can also spend more for a well maintained 951 with records and probably some upgrades ($10+ range) and jump in it and drive, but I seen enough guys trying to make repairs in the paddock to not trust that method. You can also buy a fully prepped 951 race car, starting at around $13-14k and going upwards from there, and those cars are usually well sorted and ready to go, assuming you are buying from a track guy that knew what he was doing.
If you want to track a 928 (which I haven't done, so keep that in mind... I'm no expert on this), entry level for a ratty 928 is still around $4-5k, with much the same as a 951 in terms of maintenance (belts, bushings, etc) and then you add in such variables as radiator replacements that cost $1000+, and quite frankly, I just can't see where a 928 is going to cost any less than a 951. Properly maintained 928's seem to be selling for the $7500-10k range for earlier models and go up from there. Mark is telling us that he can do it for less and I have no reason to doubt him, but again, I haven't seen many folks tracking 928's in the midwest either, whereas 951's are one of the most popular track cars there.
If cheap racing is your thing, you ought to look into a 914.
Neither of the aforementioned examples includes such things as adding in roll cage costs, struts/shocks and tires, which would cost pretty much the same for either car.
One point I should make is that going to a track event for me means taking a car that has complete maintenance and will be as reliable as possible for the entire weekend. Yes, things can and do break when running a car hard, but showing up with shoestring repairs is a recipe for working on your car while others are racing, and thats something I prefer not to do. If the car isn't ready, I won't race.
Mark obviously "drank the koolaid" and is hardcore about his track time. He's in a different category from your average beginning track guy just looking to get into it, tho. (Hey Mark, thats a compliment, not an attack! lol) I think the best advice for the original poster is that pick which ever car you like or are most comfortable with and just go for it. Either will be a fine choice and both will have more capability than you will have skill as a driver.
Regards,