Track car; 928 vs. 951
08-28-2007, 12:08 PM
#76
Rennlist Member
But like you said that would be an early 928. Ones that are lower in power and harder to find a LSD and suspension that would make as good a track car as a GT or S4 (I think I have those models right) and make it as competitive as a 951S. At least from what I have seen. Of course those cars also started out almost double what a 951 costs so.......
But I don't know as much about 928s as some of the people on here. I know I looked and studied them some and decided that I would much rather have a 944 series car.
Oh and you're right about the 914. Those are a little go-kart. I don't know if I have ever been in a car the pulled that many latteral G's.
But I don't know as much about 928s as some of the people on here. I know I looked and studied them some and decided that I would much rather have a 944 series car.
Oh and you're right about the 914. Those are a little go-kart. I don't know if I have ever been in a car the pulled that many latteral G's.
08-28-2007, 01:06 PM
#77
Three Wheelin'
924 was out in '76, the first gen rx-7 was out in 78, and it became progressively more like 944s with each new generation.
Of course, I only say this because some Ricer high schooler came up to me in a parking lot and said I had a "sweet" RX-7. Can't kids these days READ? It clearly says on the front AND the back that it's a... /rant
08-28-2007, 01:24 PM
#78
Rennlist Member
Wow, the BS is getting pretty thick here.
Mark, how well do you know Kim Crumb? Your rhetoric & self promotion are quite similar to Kim. Car even looks the same.
http://www.928s4vr.com/kim_c.htm
All in good fun, Mark, but I’ve got to bust your chops a little after seeing the picture of wheels and all sorts of other **** “ergonomically” transported to the track in your car (do you actually drive it that way - how legal/safe is it to obscure not only your entire rear view, but also the passenger side view as well?).
So your “similar mods” criteria for comparison is limited to $1000 of engine
modifications? No budget restrictions on the initial car purchase, weight
reduction methods, brake upgrades, transmission gearing, or suspension
modfications?
Factory rated horsepower for a 928S4 is 316bhp at the flywheel, but you claim to have 300-320+ rwhp (360-380 bhp assuming 15% driveline loss) w/ only headers? Holbert didn’t do any “tuning” on that particular car? Factory curb weight is 3505 lbs for an S4. You claim 928s weigh 2700 lbs in race trim? So you removed 800 lbs from the stock/curb weight? Are you allowing a 944 Turbo S to weigh 2200 lbs and run 15% -20% more power than stock, for your challenge?
But in the end, those kind of comparisons are nonsense. Should just pick a racing venue that has established rules and limitations, and see how the cars compare on equal footing. So how about PCA Club Racing, Stock Classes? Dont you think the PCA stock class (for example Class E where the 928S4, GT, and GTS run against the 944 Turbo S and 944S2 Club Sports) would be a good way to judge performance? Guess not…
Stock to stock is not fair, but if you allow a 928 to remove twice as much weight as a 951, that’s a fair comparison? Yeah, ok…
Yes, there were more 944s made than 928s, and yep there are a lot more 944s in Club Racing than 928s. But there were dramatically fewer 944S2 Club Sports/Firehawk cars, 944 Turbo Cups, 964 USA and Euro Cups, and 964 RS Americas made than 928s, and those cars outnumber the 928 Club Racing population significantly.
PCA has no rule on tire size, you can run whatever tire will fit on the rim. Rim sizes can be 1” wider than stock sizes. I thought the later 928s came with 8s and 9s (so PCA would allow 9s and 10s), I don’t think they came with 6” rims…
Sure, there are a lot of accessories that make any of the cars weigh more, same with 944s and 911s. How is that unfair? A 944 Turbo S is a heavy car for its size (has all sorts of heavy options unnecessary for racing, including AC and sound deadening insulation). Interesting that the S4, GT, and GTS still have the best power to weight ratio for PCA E-class, but the 964 C2, 944 Turbo S, and 944S2 Club Sport are the top competitors.
But since your car is modified out of the PCA Stock classes and into the GT (unlimited modifications) class, you’re stuck in GT2. With stock displacement, the modified 2.5 ltr 944 Turbos are in the lower/supposedly slower GT3 class, yet...
Actual PCA Club Race Results:
'02 Laguna Seca
1:38.1 Lars Giersing, 944 Turbo, GT3S
'02 Sears Point
1:47.0 Lars Giersing, 944 Turbo, GT3S
1:47.9 William Petty, '70 914-6, GT3S (oof - thats embarrassing for both
the 944 and 928 crowd).
'00 Thunderhill
2:00.82 Richard Steranka, 944 Turbo, GT3S class
2:03.86 Lars Giersing, 944 Turbo, GT3S
But Im sure that none of these count, because they paid more than $1000 on engine work, they had a recent alignment, and 4 spare wheels did not fit in the hatch with a full cage & rear cross bars - right?
Mark, how well do you know Kim Crumb? Your rhetoric & self promotion are quite similar to Kim. Car even looks the same.
http://www.928s4vr.com/kim_c.htm
All in good fun, Mark, but I’ve got to bust your chops a little after seeing the picture of wheels and all sorts of other **** “ergonomically” transported to the track in your car (do you actually drive it that way - how legal/safe is it to obscure not only your entire rear view, but also the passenger side view as well?).
So your “similar mods” criteria for comparison is limited to $1000 of engine
modifications? No budget restrictions on the initial car purchase, weight
reduction methods, brake upgrades, transmission gearing, or suspension
modfications?
Factory rated horsepower for a 928S4 is 316bhp at the flywheel, but you claim to have 300-320+ rwhp (360-380 bhp assuming 15% driveline loss) w/ only headers? Holbert didn’t do any “tuning” on that particular car? Factory curb weight is 3505 lbs for an S4. You claim 928s weigh 2700 lbs in race trim? So you removed 800 lbs from the stock/curb weight? Are you allowing a 944 Turbo S to weigh 2200 lbs and run 15% -20% more power than stock, for your challenge?
But in the end, those kind of comparisons are nonsense. Should just pick a racing venue that has established rules and limitations, and see how the cars compare on equal footing. So how about PCA Club Racing, Stock Classes? Dont you think the PCA stock class (for example Class E where the 928S4, GT, and GTS run against the 944 Turbo S and 944S2 Club Sports) would be a good way to judge performance? Guess not…
please!!!!! classing a 928 is hard and more than poorly done with PCA, and yes, there are a lot more 944s raced. probably because there are a lot more 944s out there (sold by porsche!)
btw.. pca classes the 944 turbo in e. 928 gets classed there as well but needs to carry 500lbs more weight AND is required to drive on 225/245 tires on 7" rims. com'mon, give me a break. it proves one thing. you are right, there has not been very many 928s raced for PCA to care about or class correctly. dont get me started with classing a 928. in my book. (and those of many others) there is more to racing than HP to weight and the porkey weight it was loaded up with when stock, with its 2 air conditioners and lead insulation, is hardly fair to use when trying to class it. in other words, you should be able to use some reasonble weight , or the lightest weight the car came in compared to the others being classed. (or weights in the same type of form)
gut the 928 and its 2700lbs , with little mod
gut the 944 and its near 2550 with little mods. that should be the range
MK
btw.. pca classes the 944 turbo in e. 928 gets classed there as well but needs to carry 500lbs more weight AND is required to drive on 225/245 tires on 7" rims. com'mon, give me a break. it proves one thing. you are right, there has not been very many 928s raced for PCA to care about or class correctly. dont get me started with classing a 928. in my book. (and those of many others) there is more to racing than HP to weight and the porkey weight it was loaded up with when stock, with its 2 air conditioners and lead insulation, is hardly fair to use when trying to class it. in other words, you should be able to use some reasonble weight , or the lightest weight the car came in compared to the others being classed. (or weights in the same type of form)
gut the 928 and its 2700lbs , with little mod
gut the 944 and its near 2550 with little mods. that should be the range
MK
Yes, there were more 944s made than 928s, and yep there are a lot more 944s in Club Racing than 928s. But there were dramatically fewer 944S2 Club Sports/Firehawk cars, 944 Turbo Cups, 964 USA and Euro Cups, and 964 RS Americas made than 928s, and those cars outnumber the 928 Club Racing population significantly.
PCA has no rule on tire size, you can run whatever tire will fit on the rim. Rim sizes can be 1” wider than stock sizes. I thought the later 928s came with 8s and 9s (so PCA would allow 9s and 10s), I don’t think they came with 6” rims…
Sure, there are a lot of accessories that make any of the cars weigh more, same with 944s and 911s. How is that unfair? A 944 Turbo S is a heavy car for its size (has all sorts of heavy options unnecessary for racing, including AC and sound deadening insulation). Interesting that the S4, GT, and GTS still have the best power to weight ratio for PCA E-class, but the 964 C2, 944 Turbo S, and 944S2 Club Sport are the top competitors.
But since your car is modified out of the PCA Stock classes and into the GT (unlimited modifications) class, you’re stuck in GT2. With stock displacement, the modified 2.5 ltr 944 Turbos are in the lower/supposedly slower GT3 class, yet...
… there should be some 944 with similar mods that can keep up. However, there isnt.
Remember Lars Girsling? he ran world challenge GT in 2000. he ran a 1:44 at laguna Seca. 5 seconds off the mark of a bone stock 928S4, with a set of headers! by the way, i havent even aligned the car for 6 years either!
928S4 times at nor cal tracks:
1:39.0 at laguna
1:47.9 at Sears
2:01.6 Thunderhill (with hill)
Mk
Remember Lars Girsling? he ran world challenge GT in 2000. he ran a 1:44 at laguna Seca. 5 seconds off the mark of a bone stock 928S4, with a set of headers! by the way, i havent even aligned the car for 6 years either!
928S4 times at nor cal tracks:
1:39.0 at laguna
1:47.9 at Sears
2:01.6 Thunderhill (with hill)
Mk
Actual PCA Club Race Results:
'02 Laguna Seca
1:38.1 Lars Giersing, 944 Turbo, GT3S
'02 Sears Point
1:47.0 Lars Giersing, 944 Turbo, GT3S
1:47.9 William Petty, '70 914-6, GT3S (oof - thats embarrassing for both
the 944 and 928 crowd).
'00 Thunderhill
2:00.82 Richard Steranka, 944 Turbo, GT3S class
2:03.86 Lars Giersing, 944 Turbo, GT3S
But Im sure that none of these count, because they paid more than $1000 on engine work, they had a recent alignment, and 4 spare wheels did not fit in the hatch with a full cage & rear cross bars - right?
08-28-2007, 01:31 PM
#79
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Oddjob, you have done your homework well.
08-28-2007, 02:27 PM
#81
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Wait, whats so horrible about using a small tire trailer? Im lost on that front..... Christ if you want to make a big positive out of getting the interior of a car filthy from stuffing sets of tires in it, go race a Dodge Caravan. Can cram lots of tires in those, and a few spare engine blocks too.
08-28-2007, 02:59 PM
#82
Rennlist Member
Dont ever put me in the same sentence as KC!!!! 
Kim has never "really" raced a 928.
Hey, dont worry. I dont take this stuff personal. Its all in good fun. and as ive said, the 944 can be a fast race car too! Ive raced a few. However, again, its about bang for the buck, and im amazed of the value the 928 has brought me in my racing. remember, its tough to argue with the results and the amount of racing with NO DNFs adn times that have been with in a second over 6 years and full racing seasons, never missing an event.
i assure you my travels to the track are safe and have never had any issues. however, seeing out the passenger side is a little challenging as you can see. But, i can see my rear view mirror on that side, so its not that bad.
as far as the mods to my 928S4. yes, no other mods to the car than the headers. I was not including the wheels, cheap suspension , safety , seat, etc, as you have to do that with any car you get. Yes, the hp the 928 S4 makes when you pulll off the cat and do just headers is near 300rwhp. even the earlier cars are doing this. the 928GT has the earlier cams and i have those early cams too. there was a GT that was racing in So cal. he dynoed almost the exact same that i did. (near 320rwhp) so, this is very common.
There is no "tuning" on the Holbert car. i have replaced all computers and ECU type stuff with all stock stuff. No mods or chip changes at all.
The challenge is just gutting the car. yes the 928 S4 weighs 3500lbs stock, but when you just remove everything in the interior, you get down to 2700lbs. if you really dig into it and replace things and re-attach suspension points, etc, you can get the platform down to near 2500lbs. the point is, you can buy a 928 for near $5k and just add headers and do all the race prep and you are on your way. no brake mods at all and no transmission mods. all stock stuff.
Ive fought for years with POC to correct the classing of the 928, with little success, even challenging the top drivers in a comparison. we have LOTS of data to support my logic. hp to weigh ratios are not what make parity. absolute weight is a HUGE factor, as much of 2/3s of the total package equation. remember, you have to brake and corner too, i noticed last time i was racing. in fact, when im racing at a 10% greater weight, you need near that in HP to make up for it. (generally, but you get the point) because the 928 has been designed with such luxuries, it tough to use the stock weights to design racing classes. if they use the weight of the club sport at 3250lbs and used that for all 928 classing, that would be fair. after all, a newer 996 checks in a 3050lbs and has near the rated hp of the 928 at 320hp. yet, it can run 350lbs lighter, and in the same class in POC racing. fair?? hardly.
so, again, its not the weight removed, its the weight it ends up with, for a car that is similar looking or equiped in the end.
The wheels that the 928 came witih are 7" rims. only with the GTS did they come with 7.5"s and 9"s. we are not even talking about the GTS here. (bigger brakes, better trans, bigger engine, etc)
as far as times go, look at Lars in '00 at T-hill. a little slower than my times at the same track, and that might have been his speedGT car. later, with his faster times, that was due to more mods. hardly modd'ed like my 928 as far as costs. again, there is no debate, that the 944 turbo is an awesome racer with huge potential. I personallly, love them! we are only talking about the 928 being a great race car with little mods and very little costs compared to others of the same quickness. AND, that when just gutted and lightly mod'ed it can handle or out handle cars that are much lighter due to some very cool design advantages .
Here is a picture of that day at Sears in '02. Tom provasi in some monster 914 and i think that petty character in the yellow one. i cant remember, as they may have been GT2 and on slicks.
we were all really close and had some great racing.
Oddjob, yes, those times dont count. Ive seen that #398 944turbo that Lars was driving. that is a 420wrhp monster that is not a gut and go car. You have been praised for doing your research, but that clearly is a car with HEAVY mods. his speedGT WC 944T was more close to what i drive, yet his time in SpeedGT Laguna in that highly preped car was 1:44!! #398 was at Sears '02 as well. not really a fair comparison. BUT, now that you mentinon it, did you see the modified anderson's 928 time??? 1:39.9 at sears and 1:30.8 at laguna. now, that kind of dwarfs lars' times in a equally prepared 944.
MK
Kim has never "really" raced a 928.Hey, dont worry. I dont take this stuff personal. Its all in good fun. and as ive said, the 944 can be a fast race car too! Ive raced a few. However, again, its about bang for the buck, and im amazed of the value the 928 has brought me in my racing. remember, its tough to argue with the results and the amount of racing with NO DNFs adn times that have been with in a second over 6 years and full racing seasons, never missing an event.
i assure you my travels to the track are safe and have never had any issues. however, seeing out the passenger side is a little challenging as you can see. But, i can see my rear view mirror on that side, so its not that bad.
as far as the mods to my 928S4. yes, no other mods to the car than the headers. I was not including the wheels, cheap suspension , safety , seat, etc, as you have to do that with any car you get. Yes, the hp the 928 S4 makes when you pulll off the cat and do just headers is near 300rwhp. even the earlier cars are doing this. the 928GT has the earlier cams and i have those early cams too. there was a GT that was racing in So cal. he dynoed almost the exact same that i did. (near 320rwhp) so, this is very common.
There is no "tuning" on the Holbert car. i have replaced all computers and ECU type stuff with all stock stuff. No mods or chip changes at all.
The challenge is just gutting the car. yes the 928 S4 weighs 3500lbs stock, but when you just remove everything in the interior, you get down to 2700lbs. if you really dig into it and replace things and re-attach suspension points, etc, you can get the platform down to near 2500lbs. the point is, you can buy a 928 for near $5k and just add headers and do all the race prep and you are on your way. no brake mods at all and no transmission mods. all stock stuff.
Ive fought for years with POC to correct the classing of the 928, with little success, even challenging the top drivers in a comparison. we have LOTS of data to support my logic. hp to weigh ratios are not what make parity. absolute weight is a HUGE factor, as much of 2/3s of the total package equation. remember, you have to brake and corner too, i noticed last time i was racing. in fact, when im racing at a 10% greater weight, you need near that in HP to make up for it. (generally, but you get the point) because the 928 has been designed with such luxuries, it tough to use the stock weights to design racing classes. if they use the weight of the club sport at 3250lbs and used that for all 928 classing, that would be fair. after all, a newer 996 checks in a 3050lbs and has near the rated hp of the 928 at 320hp. yet, it can run 350lbs lighter, and in the same class in POC racing. fair?? hardly.
so, again, its not the weight removed, its the weight it ends up with, for a car that is similar looking or equiped in the end.
The wheels that the 928 came witih are 7" rims. only with the GTS did they come with 7.5"s and 9"s. we are not even talking about the GTS here. (bigger brakes, better trans, bigger engine, etc)
as far as times go, look at Lars in '00 at T-hill. a little slower than my times at the same track, and that might have been his speedGT car. later, with his faster times, that was due to more mods. hardly modd'ed like my 928 as far as costs. again, there is no debate, that the 944 turbo is an awesome racer with huge potential. I personallly, love them! we are only talking about the 928 being a great race car with little mods and very little costs compared to others of the same quickness. AND, that when just gutted and lightly mod'ed it can handle or out handle cars that are much lighter due to some very cool design advantages .
Here is a picture of that day at Sears in '02. Tom provasi in some monster 914 and i think that petty character in the yellow one. i cant remember, as they may have been GT2 and on slicks.
we were all really close and had some great racing.
Oddjob, yes, those times dont count. Ive seen that #398 944turbo that Lars was driving. that is a 420wrhp monster that is not a gut and go car. You have been praised for doing your research, but that clearly is a car with HEAVY mods. his speedGT WC 944T was more close to what i drive, yet his time in SpeedGT Laguna in that highly preped car was 1:44!! #398 was at Sears '02 as well. not really a fair comparison. BUT, now that you mentinon it, did you see the modified anderson's 928 time??? 1:39.9 at sears and 1:30.8 at laguna. now, that kind of dwarfs lars' times in a equally prepared 944.
MK
Wow, the BS is getting pretty thick here.
Mark
how well do you know Kim Crumb? Your rhetoric & self promotion are quite similar to Kim. Car even looks the same.
http://www.928s4vr.com/kim_c.htm
All in good fun, Mark, but I’ve got to bust your chops a little after seeing the picture of wheels and all sorts of other **** “ergonomically” transported to the track in your car (do you actually drive it that way - how legal/safe is it to obscure not only your entire rear view, but also the passenger side view as well?).
So your “similar mods” criteria for comparison is limited to $1000 of engine
modifications? No budget restrictions on the initial car purchase, weight
reduction methods, brake upgrades, transmission gearing, or suspension
modfications?
Factory rated horsepower for a 928S4 is 316bhp at the flywheel, but you claim to have 300-320+ rwhp (360-380 bhp assuming 15% driveline loss) w/ only headers? Holbert didn’t do any “tuning” on that particular car? Factory curb weight is 3505 lbs for an S4. You claim 928s weigh 2700 lbs in race trim? So you removed 800 lbs from the stock/curb weight? Are you allowing a 944 Turbo S to weigh 2200 lbs and run 15% -20% more power than stock, for your challenge?
But in the end, those kind of comparisons are nonsense. Should just pick a racing venue that has established rules and limitations, and see how the cars compare on equal footing. So how about PCA Club Racing, Stock Classes? Dont you think the PCA stock class (for example Class E where the 928S4, GT, and GTS run against the 944 Turbo S and 944S2 Club Sports) would be a good way to judge performance? Guess not…
Stock to stock is not fair, but if you allow a 928 to remove twice as much weight as a 951, that’s a fair comparison? Yeah, ok…
Yes, there were more 944s made than 928s, and yep there are a lot more 944s in Club Racing than 928s. But there were dramatically fewer 944S2 Club Sports/Firehawk cars, 944 Turbo Cups, 964 USA and Euro Cups, and 964 RS Americas made than 928s, and those cars outnumber the 928 Club Racing population significantly.
PCA has no rule on tire size, you can run whatever tire will fit on the rim. Rim sizes can be 1” wider than stock sizes. I thought the later 928s came with 8s and 9s (so PCA would allow 9s and 10s), I don’t think they came with 6” rims…
Sure, there are a lot of accessories that make any of the cars weigh more, same with 944s and 911s. How is that unfair? A 944 Turbo S is a heavy car for its size (has all sorts of heavy options unnecessary for racing, including AC and sound deadening insulation). Interesting that the S4, GT, and GTS still have the best power to weight ratio for PCA E-class, but the 964 C2, 944 Turbo S, and 944S2 Club Sport are the top competitors.
But since your car is modified out of the PCA Stock classes and into the GT (unlimited modifications) class, you’re stuck in GT2. With stock displacement, the modified 2.5 ltr 944 Turbos are in the lower/supposedly slower GT3 class, yet...
Actual PCA Club Race Results:
'02 Laguna Seca
1:38.1 Lars Giersing, 944 Turbo, GT3S
'02 Sears Point
1:47.0 Lars Giersing, 944 Turbo, GT3S
1:47.9 William Petty, '70 914-6, GT3S (oof - thats embarrassing for both
the 944 and 928 crowd).
'00 Thunderhill
2:00.82 Richard Steranka, 944 Turbo, GT3S class
2:03.86 Lars Giersing, 944 Turbo, GT3S
But Im sure that none of these count, because they paid more than $1000 on engine work, they had a recent alignment, and 4 spare wheels did not fit in the hatch with a full cage & rear cross bars - right?
Mark
how well do you know Kim Crumb? Your rhetoric & self promotion are quite similar to Kim. Car even looks the same.
http://www.928s4vr.com/kim_c.htm
All in good fun, Mark, but I’ve got to bust your chops a little after seeing the picture of wheels and all sorts of other **** “ergonomically” transported to the track in your car (do you actually drive it that way - how legal/safe is it to obscure not only your entire rear view, but also the passenger side view as well?).
So your “similar mods” criteria for comparison is limited to $1000 of engine
modifications? No budget restrictions on the initial car purchase, weight
reduction methods, brake upgrades, transmission gearing, or suspension
modfications?
Factory rated horsepower for a 928S4 is 316bhp at the flywheel, but you claim to have 300-320+ rwhp (360-380 bhp assuming 15% driveline loss) w/ only headers? Holbert didn’t do any “tuning” on that particular car? Factory curb weight is 3505 lbs for an S4. You claim 928s weigh 2700 lbs in race trim? So you removed 800 lbs from the stock/curb weight? Are you allowing a 944 Turbo S to weigh 2200 lbs and run 15% -20% more power than stock, for your challenge?
But in the end, those kind of comparisons are nonsense. Should just pick a racing venue that has established rules and limitations, and see how the cars compare on equal footing. So how about PCA Club Racing, Stock Classes? Dont you think the PCA stock class (for example Class E where the 928S4, GT, and GTS run against the 944 Turbo S and 944S2 Club Sports) would be a good way to judge performance? Guess not…
Stock to stock is not fair, but if you allow a 928 to remove twice as much weight as a 951, that’s a fair comparison? Yeah, ok…
Yes, there were more 944s made than 928s, and yep there are a lot more 944s in Club Racing than 928s. But there were dramatically fewer 944S2 Club Sports/Firehawk cars, 944 Turbo Cups, 964 USA and Euro Cups, and 964 RS Americas made than 928s, and those cars outnumber the 928 Club Racing population significantly.
PCA has no rule on tire size, you can run whatever tire will fit on the rim. Rim sizes can be 1” wider than stock sizes. I thought the later 928s came with 8s and 9s (so PCA would allow 9s and 10s), I don’t think they came with 6” rims…
Sure, there are a lot of accessories that make any of the cars weigh more, same with 944s and 911s. How is that unfair? A 944 Turbo S is a heavy car for its size (has all sorts of heavy options unnecessary for racing, including AC and sound deadening insulation). Interesting that the S4, GT, and GTS still have the best power to weight ratio for PCA E-class, but the 964 C2, 944 Turbo S, and 944S2 Club Sport are the top competitors.
But since your car is modified out of the PCA Stock classes and into the GT (unlimited modifications) class, you’re stuck in GT2. With stock displacement, the modified 2.5 ltr 944 Turbos are in the lower/supposedly slower GT3 class, yet...
Actual PCA Club Race Results:
'02 Laguna Seca
1:38.1 Lars Giersing, 944 Turbo, GT3S
'02 Sears Point
1:47.0 Lars Giersing, 944 Turbo, GT3S
1:47.9 William Petty, '70 914-6, GT3S (oof - thats embarrassing for both
the 944 and 928 crowd).
'00 Thunderhill
2:00.82 Richard Steranka, 944 Turbo, GT3S class
2:03.86 Lars Giersing, 944 Turbo, GT3S
But Im sure that none of these count, because they paid more than $1000 on engine work, they had a recent alignment, and 4 spare wheels did not fit in the hatch with a full cage & rear cross bars - right?
08-28-2007, 03:17 PM
#83
Race Director
I can't imagine that there is 800lbs to be removed from the interior alone. If the 928 is like the 944, the quick big weight savings is in ditching the power seats and the rear seat all together, and going with fixed-back race seats. I know in my car that was about a net savings of about 100lbs. Then comes the sound deadening, power bits, stereo bits, etc, etc. But an additional 700lbs? That seems high to me. Do you have some sort of spread sheet that breaks it down?
Again, I don't mean any offense, I'm more curious than anything because I am a weight weenie myself~
08-28-2007, 03:43 PM
#84
Rennlist Member
I could imagine that the 928 seats weigh more. They're bigger and hella power everthing and the rears are seperate with a center console. I could also see the door pannels and stuff weighing more too. I could see 200 or so with stripping the interior.
I'm a "weight weenie" too. I really want to know where that 800 lbs comes from. Then you have a roll cage installed and a seat and fire extingusher and stuff like that to add back in.
I'm a "weight weenie" too. I really want to know where that 800 lbs comes from. Then you have a roll cage installed and a seat and fire extingusher and stuff like that to add back in.
08-28-2007, 03:55 PM
#85
Rennlist Member
No problem. if it wasnt for this fact, i wouldnt have built 4 race cars for me and some friends!
First of all, that weight is a little on the heavy side.
it is amazing how the weight falls out , and i did have a spreadsheet on what i pulled, as i weighed everything.
Like i said, ive done this 4 times and all the cars weigh within 50lbs of each other. the earlier cars have a 40lb advantage due to lighter engines.
but they all end up at 2675 to 2750 without too much fuss.
seats were near 70llbs, all the glass, interior, AC stuff, rear seats and AC, dash door panels, motors, sunroof stuff, then the bumpers , headlight system, and then weld back in a 6 point cage that weighs around 80 -100lbs and you end up at near 2700lbs.
I think the 3500lb rating is a little heavy. maybe with a full tank of gas that might be believeable. (22gallons)
My S4 weighs and has weighed 2695 empty, no gas or driver. generally when it hits the scales it always has a few gals of gas, and it checks in at 2720-2740bs.
Scots 82 with 5 liter euro conversion is 2675 empy no gas, but its the 2 valve version.
Andersons 600hp monster 928 is near 2550lbs, and he has taken the entire car apart and put it back together and added many additional chassis tubes.
mk
First of all, that weight is a little on the heavy side.
it is amazing how the weight falls out , and i did have a spreadsheet on what i pulled, as i weighed everything.
Like i said, ive done this 4 times and all the cars weigh within 50lbs of each other. the earlier cars have a 40lb advantage due to lighter engines.
but they all end up at 2675 to 2750 without too much fuss.
seats were near 70llbs, all the glass, interior, AC stuff, rear seats and AC, dash door panels, motors, sunroof stuff, then the bumpers , headlight system, and then weld back in a 6 point cage that weighs around 80 -100lbs and you end up at near 2700lbs.
I think the 3500lb rating is a little heavy. maybe with a full tank of gas that might be believeable. (22gallons)
My S4 weighs and has weighed 2695 empty, no gas or driver. generally when it hits the scales it always has a few gals of gas, and it checks in at 2720-2740bs.
Scots 82 with 5 liter euro conversion is 2675 empy no gas, but its the 2 valve version.
Andersons 600hp monster 928 is near 2550lbs, and he has taken the entire car apart and put it back together and added many additional chassis tubes.
mk
I don't mean any offense by questioning this Mark, so don't take it wrong........
I can't imagine that there is 800lbs to be removed from the interior alone. If the 928 is like the 944, the quick big weight savings is in ditching the power seats and the rear seat all together, and going with fixed-back race seats. I know in my car that was about a net savings of about 100lbs. Then comes the sound deadening, power bits, stereo bits, etc, etc. But an additional 700lbs? That seems high to me. Do you have some sort of spread sheet that breaks it down?
Again, I don't mean any offense, I'm more curious than anything because I am a weight weenie myself~
I can't imagine that there is 800lbs to be removed from the interior alone. If the 928 is like the 944, the quick big weight savings is in ditching the power seats and the rear seat all together, and going with fixed-back race seats. I know in my car that was about a net savings of about 100lbs. Then comes the sound deadening, power bits, stereo bits, etc, etc. But an additional 700lbs? That seems high to me. Do you have some sort of spread sheet that breaks it down?
Again, I don't mean any offense, I'm more curious than anything because I am a weight weenie myself~
08-28-2007, 04:38 PM
#86
Rennlist Member
Well I wasn't counting glass. I ususaly don't consider that as a normal part of stripping the interior. What glass did you remove? What did you replace it with, if anything?
I was also not counting bumpers and and headlight system. What modifications did you do to the bumpers?
If you put a 951 on that type of diet you'll loose a ton of weight too. Maybe not the same amount but I would guess the same % if not greater. The rear seats in a 944 don't weigh a lot. The upper half is heavy but the lower half doesn't weigh hardly anything.
Anyone got compariable numbers for a 951?
I was also not counting bumpers and and headlight system. What modifications did you do to the bumpers?
If you put a 951 on that type of diet you'll loose a ton of weight too. Maybe not the same amount but I would guess the same % if not greater. The rear seats in a 944 don't weigh a lot. The upper half is heavy but the lower half doesn't weigh hardly anything.
Anyone got compariable numbers for a 951?
08-28-2007, 04:52 PM
#87
Rennlist Member
Mark,
I had to throw KC at you, it was the biggest insult I could come up with... sorry for the cheap shot!
And dont get me wrong, I just felt compelled to defend the 944's honor on the 944 forum. I know its hard to argue with the performance of a V-8, especially a porsche built one. And I know what it costs to build a high output 2.5 turbo motor that is reliable for real racing.
The main advantage that the 951 has over the 928 all revolves around size/weight. If you take the weight difference away, I got nothing...it becomes a comparison of a high displacement low stressed V8 vs a low disp high stressed I4 Turbo. Long term, we all know what will be more reliable and cheaper to run...
So of course the 944 camp is going to say the 928s cant loose weight, and the 928 guys are going to say the 951 guys cant spend too much money making big power out of the little motor, right?
As others have mentioned, I would be a big fan of seeing more GT2 944 tubs modified to fit 928 V8s - that just sounds like an awful lot of fun to me.
Im not familiar with POC rules (POC is still regional southern California, correct? Or has it expanded?), so I dont know how they have 928s classed or what the restrictions are for modifications. PCA currently has 996s in Class C, two classes up from the S4, GT, and GTS.
There are 8" x 16" forged "club sport" wheels from 928s (the 944TS guys like to get them to replace the 7" fronts and go with the 9" rears) - thought those were off the S4 or GT, no?
I dont have any specific knowledge of Lars' GT3S 951 or what he has done to it. I have only been on track with him one time (back in '01 he raced at the Brainerd Int'l PCA Club Race); the car was pretty fast, but I never took a close look at it, nor spoke to him. He ran some 1:45s back in '01 which was moving along pretty good, considering that the 996 Cups were running in the 1:42-44 range this year.
I had to throw KC at you, it was the biggest insult I could come up with... sorry for the cheap shot!
And dont get me wrong, I just felt compelled to defend the 944's honor on the 944 forum. I know its hard to argue with the performance of a V-8, especially a porsche built one. And I know what it costs to build a high output 2.5 turbo motor that is reliable for real racing.
The main advantage that the 951 has over the 928 all revolves around size/weight. If you take the weight difference away, I got nothing...it becomes a comparison of a high displacement low stressed V8 vs a low disp high stressed I4 Turbo. Long term, we all know what will be more reliable and cheaper to run...
So of course the 944 camp is going to say the 928s cant loose weight, and the 928 guys are going to say the 951 guys cant spend too much money making big power out of the little motor, right?
As others have mentioned, I would be a big fan of seeing more GT2 944 tubs modified to fit 928 V8s - that just sounds like an awful lot of fun to me.
Im not familiar with POC rules (POC is still regional southern California, correct? Or has it expanded?), so I dont know how they have 928s classed or what the restrictions are for modifications. PCA currently has 996s in Class C, two classes up from the S4, GT, and GTS.
There are 8" x 16" forged "club sport" wheels from 928s (the 944TS guys like to get them to replace the 7" fronts and go with the 9" rears) - thought those were off the S4 or GT, no?
I dont have any specific knowledge of Lars' GT3S 951 or what he has done to it. I have only been on track with him one time (back in '01 he raced at the Brainerd Int'l PCA Club Race); the car was pretty fast, but I never took a close look at it, nor spoke to him. He ran some 1:45s back in '01 which was moving along pretty good, considering that the 996 Cups were running in the 1:42-44 range this year.
08-28-2007, 05:01 PM
#88
Rennlist Member
Well I wasn't counting glass. I ususaly don't consider that as a normal part of stripping the interior. What glass did you remove? What did you replace it with, if anything?
I was also not counting bumpers and and headlight system. What modifications did you do to the bumpers?
If you put a 951 on that type of diet you'll loose a ton of weight too. Maybe not the same amount but I would guess the same % if not greater. The rear seats in a 944 don't weigh a lot. The upper half is heavy but the lower half doesn't weigh hardly anything.
Anyone got compariable numbers for a 951?
I was also not counting bumpers and and headlight system. What modifications did you do to the bumpers?
If you put a 951 on that type of diet you'll loose a ton of weight too. Maybe not the same amount but I would guess the same % if not greater. The rear seats in a 944 don't weigh a lot. The upper half is heavy but the lower half doesn't weigh hardly anything.
Anyone got compariable numbers for a 951?
You would use lexan in place of glass. The 944 can save some weight going with the lexan hatch. Can also go with thin lexan side windows for a few more pounds. Front windshield, you need to use thick lexan, which ends up only being 2-3 lbs lighter than the factory glass.
The front and rear US bumpers are heavy. Especially the 5mph bumper shocks. Get rid of those and go with a fiberglass rear bumper, w/o the rubber bumper pads - that will save quite a bit of weight.
Lightweight battery
Manual everything
Delete all insulation and undercoating
HVAC system, get rid of all of it.
Headlights, motor, linkage - gone.
Going to need some fiberglass panels
Windshield wiper assembly and motor - cant use wipers on lexan anyways.
It will be hard to get a 951 down to 2200 lbs with the big brakes and engine (944 n/a dont have as much exhaust/turbo plumbing and smaller brakes and rotors - makes it easier to get the SPEC cars light) - I think 2400 is probably a more realistic minimum with race/safety equipment (cage, seats, belts, fire supression, etc)
08-28-2007, 05:25 PM
#89
Rennlist Member
Well I was just thinking doing all the Lexan replacement then drives up the price. I was thinking he ment 800 lbs by just taking stuff out like the interior and A/C.
Also I was looking at S4 and GTS prices on here and autotrader and you can get a nicely moded and maintained for what those things are starting at. A GTS looks like it can run 30-50k. That's what you would expect for an already built 944 racer.
Also I was looking at S4 and GTS prices on here and autotrader and you can get a nicely moded and maintained for what those things are starting at. A GTS looks like it can run 30-50k. That's what you would expect for an already built 944 racer.
08-28-2007, 05:46 PM
#90
Rennlist Member
No problem.
Again, I know im on the 944 forum, but I would say this with the 928s too. The 944 is lighter and with the turbo, it can make some BIG hp fairly easily. There are not many of the "budget" racers like me out there, so my story is a little different. Plus, part of my enjoyment is running a car that not many people run. The fact that i can fit everything in the car and go to the race track and run well, is most of the entertainment. I had the bucks, im sure all of us would be in a Cup car. ( or Andersons 928 or one of those monster 944! because those are cool and fast)
The reason i chimed in was that someone mentioned that the 928 was only effective as a race car on long tracks, and at tracks like sears, the advantage goes to the 944. That clearly is not the case. in autocross, for sure. in racing there are way too many factors to count and both cars can be made pretty fast. the point i was making is that the 928 is probably the easiest and cheapest to make "realatively" fast. once you start doing the upgrades to either of them, im sure they would equal out and have some trade offs.
Lars drove a few folks 944s over the years. the one from his shop that ran SpeedGT at laguna in '00 was running 1:44ish. the #398 that was from LA, was built up pretty well and it ran 1:38 at Laguna and 1:47.0 at Sears, while my cheap conversion 928 with only a set of headers for engine mods ran a 1:47.9.
Ive been fighting against some turbo cars lately, and once you have the platform, its almost unfair, the way you can just "turn up the boost!"
Hey, we all have cousin cars. you got half a 928 engine in there!
I do wish there were more of the 944s and 928s racing, because they do make such great race cars.
mk
Again, I know im on the 944 forum, but I would say this with the 928s too. The 944 is lighter and with the turbo, it can make some BIG hp fairly easily. There are not many of the "budget" racers like me out there, so my story is a little different. Plus, part of my enjoyment is running a car that not many people run. The fact that i can fit everything in the car and go to the race track and run well, is most of the entertainment. I had the bucks, im sure all of us would be in a Cup car. ( or Andersons 928 or one of those monster 944! because those are cool and fast)
The reason i chimed in was that someone mentioned that the 928 was only effective as a race car on long tracks, and at tracks like sears, the advantage goes to the 944. That clearly is not the case. in autocross, for sure
. in racing there are way too many factors to count and both cars can be made pretty fast. the point i was making is that the 928 is probably the easiest and cheapest to make "realatively" fast. once you start doing the upgrades to either of them, im sure they would equal out and have some trade offs.Lars drove a few folks 944s over the years. the one from his shop that ran SpeedGT at laguna in '00 was running 1:44ish. the #398 that was from LA, was built up pretty well and it ran 1:38 at Laguna and 1:47.0 at Sears, while my cheap conversion 928 with only a set of headers for engine mods ran a 1:47.9.
Ive been fighting against some turbo cars lately, and once you have the platform, its almost unfair, the way you can just "turn up the boost!"
Hey, we all have cousin cars. you got half a 928 engine in there!
I do wish there were more of the 944s and 928s racing, because they do make such great race cars.
mk
Mark,
I had to throw KC at you, it was the biggest insult I could come up with... sorry for the cheap shot!
And dont get me wrong, I just felt compelled to defend the 944's honor on the 944 forum. I know its hard to argue with the performance of a V-8, especially a porsche built one. And I know what it costs to build a high output 2.5 turbo motor that is reliable for real racing.
The main advantage that the 951 has over the 928 all revolves around size/weight. If you take the weight difference away, I got nothing...it becomes a comparison of a high displacement low stressed V8 vs a low disp high stressed I4 Turbo. Long term, we all know what will be more reliable and cheaper to run...
So of course the 944 camp is going to say the 928s cant loose weight, and the 928 guys are going to say the 951 guys cant spend too much money making big power out of the little motor, right?
As others have mentioned, I would be a big fan of seeing more GT2 944 tubs modified to fit 928 V8s - that just sounds like an awful lot of fun to me.
Im not familiar with POC rules (POC is still regional southern California, correct? Or has it expanded?), so I dont know how they have 928s classed or what the restrictions are for modifications. PCA currently has 996s in Class C, two classes up from the S4, GT, and GTS.
There are 8" x 16" forged "club sport" wheels from 928s (the 944TS guys like to get them to replace the 7" fronts and go with the 9" rears) - thought those were off the S4 or GT, no?
I dont have any specific knowledge of Lars' GT3S 951 or what he has done to it. I have only been on track with him one time (back in '01 he raced at the Brainerd Int'l PCA Club Race); the car was pretty fast, but I never took a close look at it, nor spoke to him. He ran some 1:45s back in '01 which was moving along pretty good, considering that the 996 Cups were running in the 1:42-44 range this year.
I had to throw KC at you, it was the biggest insult I could come up with... sorry for the cheap shot!
And dont get me wrong, I just felt compelled to defend the 944's honor on the 944 forum. I know its hard to argue with the performance of a V-8, especially a porsche built one. And I know what it costs to build a high output 2.5 turbo motor that is reliable for real racing.
The main advantage that the 951 has over the 928 all revolves around size/weight. If you take the weight difference away, I got nothing...it becomes a comparison of a high displacement low stressed V8 vs a low disp high stressed I4 Turbo. Long term, we all know what will be more reliable and cheaper to run...
So of course the 944 camp is going to say the 928s cant loose weight, and the 928 guys are going to say the 951 guys cant spend too much money making big power out of the little motor, right?
As others have mentioned, I would be a big fan of seeing more GT2 944 tubs modified to fit 928 V8s - that just sounds like an awful lot of fun to me.
Im not familiar with POC rules (POC is still regional southern California, correct? Or has it expanded?), so I dont know how they have 928s classed or what the restrictions are for modifications. PCA currently has 996s in Class C, two classes up from the S4, GT, and GTS.
There are 8" x 16" forged "club sport" wheels from 928s (the 944TS guys like to get them to replace the 7" fronts and go with the 9" rears) - thought those were off the S4 or GT, no?
I dont have any specific knowledge of Lars' GT3S 951 or what he has done to it. I have only been on track with him one time (back in '01 he raced at the Brainerd Int'l PCA Club Race); the car was pretty fast, but I never took a close look at it, nor spoke to him. He ran some 1:45s back in '01 which was moving along pretty good, considering that the 996 Cups were running in the 1:42-44 range this year.