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Well, just emailed the "final" build to SA, PPNAFHM3 http://www.porschecode.com/PPNAFHM3
Freeze date has already pushed out one week....right now says 3/2/23. But think I'm pretty set...unless PTS should open up!
I personally would option FAL, LWBS, PCCB and PDLS+ for the RS.
The LWBS are incredible on or off the track, the PCCB's also bring the steering feel to another level, virtually no dust and will likely last the life of the car, and PDLS+ for those late-night country runs!
After living with the LWBS since 2014, and about 45,000km over a few cars, I can tell you with good authority they are pointless. It's just a show item to look cool.
North American spec Porsche cars don't have roll cages so the main benefits of the LWBS is neutered. And if someone put in after market roll cages in order to install 6 point, my first worry would be would the cage hold? Or would they punch right through the stamp steel on impact?
Granted, they are a good chunk lighter than 18-way. That's one good thing about the LWBS.
Just to pick up a detail…. Are you showing the blue arrow as where the forces act? Or the position of the FAL unit on the damper?
FAL unit on each damper is higher up… above the carrier/knuckle and under the spring perch…. Red arrow.
You are 100% correct. I located the blue arrow to show the section where the pneumatic line for the FAL clearly connects. But I should have placed it where you placed the red arrow since that is the location where the lift occurs.
Thank you for clarifying.
The shape of the rear diffuser on the 4 RS may be less problematic with the nose lifted than the 3
That would make sense just based on the geometry difference between the 3 and 4. The 3 has a shorter wheelbase, along with more overhang rearward of the rear axle.
After living with the LWBS since 2014, and about 45,000km over a few cars, I can tell you with good authority they are pointless. It's just a show item to look cool.
North American spec Porsche cars don't have roll cages so the main benefits of the LWBS is neutered. And if someone put in after market roll cages in order to install 6 point, my first worry would be would the cage hold? Or would they punch right through the stamp steel on impact?
Granted, they are a good chunk lighter than 18-way. That's one good thing about the LWBS.
As you quoted me, I will counter with, "In your opinion..." The bolded statements are not held by everyone, no roll cage so no LWBS... we all want to race our Porsche's so we need a roll cage... wow.
Just for looks, OK, sure whatever.
Curious why, if you despise them so much did it take you 3 cars to figure it out?
You are 100% correct. I located the blue arrow to show the section where the pneumatic line for the FAL clearly connects. But I should have placed it where you placed the red arrow since that is the location where the lift occurs.
Thank you for clarifying.
The old FAL was pneumatic. Now it is hydraulic on the GT4RS.
After living with the LWBS since 2014, and about 45,000km over a few cars, I can tell you with good authority they are pointless. It's just a show item to look cool.
North American spec Porsche cars don't have roll cages so the main benefits of the LWBS is neutered. And if someone put in after market roll cages in order to install 6 point, my first worry would be would the cage hold? Or would they punch right through the stamp steel on impact?
Granted, they are a good chunk lighter than 18-way. That's one good thing about the LWBS.
Originally Posted by Westcoast
As you quoted me, I will counter with, "In your opinion..." The bolded statements are not held by everyone, no roll cage so no LWBS... we all want to race our Porsche's so we need a roll cage... wow.
Just for looks, OK, sure whatever.
Curious why, if you despise them so much did it take you 3 cars to figure it out?
It pains me to see two RL enthusiasts talking past each other like this. Why don't you guys find a good bar on Galiano Island to grab a beer together? You are likely to find more in common than differences and everyone can enjoy their cars as they like.
My own view of LWBS is that in addition to looking cool and like they belong in the car, they are also comfortable, even for long drives. But that's my experience and I recognize it's not shared universally.
After living with the LWBS since 2014, and about 45,000km over a few cars, I can tell you with good authority they are pointless. It's just a show item to look cool.
North American spec Porsche cars don't have roll cages so the main benefits of the LWBS is neutered. And if someone put in after market roll cages in order to install 6 point, my first worry would be would the cage hold? Or would they punch right through the stamp steel on impact?
Granted, they are a good chunk lighter than 18-way. That's one good thing about the LWBS.
I hope you're wrong. I'm not saying you ARE wrong, I'm saying I HOPE you're wrong. My 981 GT4 had regular sofas, and I would regularly bruise the outside of my knees from bracing myself in the car. It genuinely hurt after a full track weekend. I was hoping the buckets would hold me in considerably better than sofas, and I'd also gain some benefit from bracing against the shoulder support of the buckets, too. And finally, while I may not go for a half cage, I did hope to install harnesses in my car using a Brey-Krause harness bar or similar product.
After living with the LWBS since 2014, and about 45,000km over a few cars, I can tell you with good authority they are pointless. It's just a show item to look cool.
North American spec Porsche cars don't have roll cages so the main benefits of the LWBS is neutered. And if someone put in after market roll cages in order to install 6 point, my first worry would be would the cage hold? Or would they punch right through the stamp steel on impact?
Granted, they are a good chunk lighter than 18-way. That's one good thing about the LWBS.
Pointless to those who can't take advantage of the feedback the LWBS provides.
I hope you're wrong. I'm not saying you ARE wrong, I'm saying I HOPE you're wrong. My 981 GT4 had regular sofas, and I would regularly bruise the outside of my knees from bracing myself in the car. It genuinely hurt after a full track weekend. I was hoping the buckets would hold me in considerably better than sofas, and I'd also gain some benefit from bracing against the shoulder support of the buckets, too. And finally, while I may not go for a half cage, I did hope to install harnesses in my car using a Brey-Krause harness bar or similar product.
I am not a track rat but do get there regularly, in my previous cars with regular sofas my experience mimics yours (first bolded), the first outing in the Spyder with LWBS and it was night and day!
No more struggling to stay in the seat or hanging on to the wheel and bracing with my knees, I could focus on the task at hand and use my hands for steering and the transmission.
As for the second bolded section, I would say the difference was 'considerable' when comparing sofa's to LWBS.
Pointless to those who can't take advantage of the feedback the LWBS provides.
@Whoopsy does have input from considerable experience.
Having LWB in a number GT cars and regular sport seats in one GT car. There is a big difference for track, the seats keep you more planted and supported. This varies by person I'm sure.
Then the other benefits a) aesthetic b) resale value c) special feel even for road (makes the car more eventful and differentiated d) lighter weight e) harness capable
I've never been in a real race seat, I'm sure those are leaps and bounds over LWB.
So with the math the PCCB save 17Kg ( all 17 is unsprung, but not all of the 17 is rotating since the calipers are fixed)
Regarding the mass at 4X idea, I believe I have read in Herb Adams book entitled something to the effect of How to Make your Car Handle, that rotating unsprung mass is approximately 3X more important than sprung mass in terms of the performance of the vehicle. Mass is constant but force changes based upon speed.of rotation and forward speed of the vehicle.
Yes the mass of your FAL is divided as unsprung mass as shown in the blue arrow in the photo below, and is not rotating, so good, along with the compressor portion which would be sprung mass and even less important. So by getting Mg wheels and PCCB you have countered the mass of the FAL very well in terms of performance of the vehicle, and you should not have to hear scrapping of the vehicle as much or hopefully not at all.
Regarding your question if 1415 Kg is the lighest weight, I can't say, But yes the Mg wheels and PCCB reduce the weight further below the official reported weight. The weights reported may be based on standards in one country and are probably not the same in other countries (with or without fluids, etc).
AP said in Henry Catchpoles video at the introduction time of the 718 GT4 and Spyder that the regulation for reporting weight changed. Prior to the 718 manufacturers were allowed to select all the options that would make the car the lightest and report that to the public as the cars base weight. In the case of my Cayman R the weight reported was 1295 Kg, but that was with 6MT, no AC, no stereo, PCCB, Li-ion battery for $1800 US, and standard LWBS. But now with the 718 the rules are the weight is reported as the way the car comes standard with no option boxes ticked.
I think with the Weissach package, PCCB and Mg wheels you have one of the lightest GT4RS.If some of the carbon fiber options for the interior are ordered it may be a little lighter. A cheap way to loose weight is with the battery. For the 987 the standard battery was 24.5 Kg, the R standard battery was 20Kg, but a Honda Gold Wing motorcycle battery AGV, cost $130, and is still working fine for me for 11 years and only weighs 11 Kg.
FAL at blue arrow
Thank you for your good information👌🏻 I’ll have to watch that video again paying attention to the little details. I’ve got all carbon options available but I reckon they are countered by also having leather on steering column, fuse box and climate panel… Also I think the WP with the cage might add some weight in contrary to a non-WP car without the cage.
I did ask AP directly when speccing my car and he advised me personally to add in the FAL as the 5,5 kgs and BOSE at 4,5kgs were both worth it, his words exactly.
After living with the LWBS since 2014, and about 45,000km over a few cars, I can tell you with good authority they are pointless. It's just a show item to look cool.
North American spec Porsche cars don't have roll cages so the main benefits of the LWBS is neutered. And if someone put in after market roll cages in order to install 6 point, my first worry would be would the cage hold? Or would they punch right through the stamp steel on impact?
Granted, they are a good chunk lighter than 18-way. That's one good thing about the LWBS.
Respectfully, with similar authority (around 65K mi in GT cars with buckets), I would disagree.
I would offer that for mixed street/track use, they are worthwhile.
- Lighter
- Way more driver feedback than sofa's. My first GT3 came with sofa's and I purchased a set of buckets to swap in. The driving feel was substantially better.
- Hold you in place much better, even if you will never track the car.
- Work great with 6pt harnesses and harness bar or cage. I have yet to see a track related accident in a 997/991 with buckets and cage with a major cage failure. Does not mean it can't happen but there is no evidence I've seen.
- Subjectively, they do look cool too
To me, the ethos of the GT cars is that you can drive them to the track, run them all day lapping then drive home. The buckets really suit that ethos IMHO. The great thing here is that you can option or purchase a car to suit your own personal preference.
Thank you for your good information👌🏻 I’ll have to watch that video again paying attention to the little details. I’ve got all carbon options available but I reckon they are countered by also having leather on steering column, fuse box and climate panel… Also I think the WP with the cage might add some weight in contrary to a non-WP car without the cage.
I did ask AP directly when speccing my car and he advised me personally to add in the FAL as the 5,5 kgs and BOSE at 4,5kgs were both worth it, his words exactly.
Due to ordering WP which allowed you to get Mg wheels, plus you added PCCB, means you have very light weight rotors and wheels which rotate and are unsprung.
So you have much better driving dynamics because of the significant reduction in rotational inertia. I would not be concerned with the static mass of the cage, leather, BOSE, and FAL.
Due to ordering WP which allowed you to get Mg wheels, plus you added PCCB, means you have very light weight rotors and wheels which rotate and are unsprung.
So you have much better driving dynamics because of the significant reduction in rotational inertia. I would not be concerned with the static mass of the cage, leather, BOSE, and FAL.
One of my favorite YouTubers, a Swede named Janko, who’ve unfortunately decided to wrap up his channel, always said: “Protetct your investment”. By this he meant if you go down the lightweight route of, in this instance, getting PCCB’s, also get the other lightweight options, as the Mag wheels to enhance the PCCB investment. I guess he’d frown upon not deleting PCM and getting the FAL, but then again, as many Rennlisters relentlessly kick me for, always spec your car bearing in mind the next owner. Not speccing FAL and doing PCM delete to get the lightest, “purest” car is just daft in my opinion, alienating many future buyers unnecessarily limiting the market when time comes to sell. The GT4RS is in my view not only a trackable car, it’s also virtuous a capable grand tourer, with its very compliant suspension and acceptable noise level when just cruising. Also, I’m wanting the ease of mind the options FAL and BOSE giving me an easier time living with it, allowing me to better enjoy the car for what it’s worth, avoiding scraping the front and underbody.
12-04-2022, 09:09 PM
