When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
In many European countries where changes in incentives are not affecting the market E-Tron sales are around or higher than Model 3 sales. E-Tron is outselling Model S and X combined in Europe. So I kindly disagree here.
1. low demand - too much production (the eTron case)
2. high production - demand is good but the manufacturer got "ahead" of themselve - US auto makers do this all the time, leading to incentives
there is no doubt there is demand and the Ford, Dodge, Chevy trucks are "in demand" but detroit tends to get a bit giddy and overproduces, leading them to have bloated inventory...
I don't think the trunk money for the eTron fits the same category....demand for hte iPace/eTron can best be described as anemic, and sales numbers by any measure are "low" - the same again can't be said for the truck example you site, sales are good, but detroit produces more than the market can absorb - one is a healthy market with healthy demand but too much supply, the other is a market with too much supply but anemic demand.
Not where I live. e-Trons are back ordered here. The demand for the e-Tron is very strong. But no one buys the I-Pace even here. And we have the strongest per capita EV sales, even more than California.
Tesla however, can't even give away the Model X right now after the e-Tron gone on sale. It's a no brainer, the Model X is CAD$80k more.
I have owned a Tesla MS 85 (265 mile range) for going on almost 6 years now. Presently have 174,000 miles on the car (original battery). I just wanted to clear some points being made about BEVs and provide some context.
People in defense of the low EPA rating of 201 miles will say that is more than enough for their needs because they only drive 20 miles a day. Problem with that is I am sure those people would not be ok with a car that had a gas tank that only held enough gas for those 20 miles.
People often cite “....I can gas up my car in 5 minutes vs the hour it takes to charge an EV”. I spend all of 5 minutes of my time per month, on charging my car. You have to keep in mind that unlike a gas car, you don’t run it down to empty before “filling” it back up. You plug the car in whenever you come home, whether you drove 5 miles or 105 miles. It takes all of 5 seconds to plug it in and go in the house and go now with my life. I plug into a 240v/40 amp outlet and it adds 29 miles of range for every hour I am plugged in. So if my commute for the day was 30 miles, I will get those miles back in an hour. I don’t know what the Taycan charging rate will be at one’s home.
On a road trip I have always used the Tesla superchargers and typically on a road trip, I only need to charge for 30 mins. While the car is charging, I am using the bathroom, getting something to eat or catching up on emails. This 30 mins will be enough to get me to the next stop which will be about 2-2 1/2 hours down the road. With the EA network, this would apply to the Taycan as well. No one needs to charge for the often quoted “hour”.
Some have mentioned that the typical buyer of the Taycan would have other cars to use for road trips, so the 201 miles range really isn’t an issue. The following is a perfect example of where it would be an issue, and not in a road trip scenario. I live 70 miles from Lime Rock, here in CT. The local chapter of the PCA holds track events at Lime Rock through out the year and if I had a Taycan, I wouldn’t be able to use it for those events. I have already stated that real world range here in the New England areas for the Taycan would be 180. Subtract 140 from that just traveling to and from Lime Rock. That leaves 40 miles to play with. Using an EV in a high speed event will burn through those 40 miles in relative short order. Another real world usage that is not something anyone would consider a “road trip”, is driving to Boston, which is about 90 miles away. Real world, that would be pushing it in the best weather conditions, impossible in the winter.
I do like the Taycan, though I don’t get the whole steering wheel with exposed screws, but that’s a different subject. Porsche is trying to play both sides of the fence, that being the BEV world and the traditional world but more specific, to their customer base and what they are used to. The result is a gimped car. What people need to understand is that with an EV, range is the performance metric.
Lastly incase anyone was wondering, yes I have experience some battery degradation after 174,000 miles, but only 6%. That works out to about 1.5 MPG in gasoline terms for the average car on the road today.
There are 2 countries with very high Model 3 sales:
- Netherlands due to incentive changes, lease companies are stocking the cars for next year.
- UK, initial Model 3 rush in late Q3 and Q4
People in defense of the low EPA rating of 201 miles will say that is more than enough for their needs because they only drive 20 miles a day. Problem with that is I am sure those people would not be ok with a car that had a gas tank that only held enough gas for those 20 miles.
That comparison doesn't make sense since I can't fill up the gas car at home.
Originally Posted by S2TGART
Lastly incase anyone was wondering, yes I have experience some battery degradation after 174,000 miles, but only 6%. That works out to about 1.5 MPG in gasoline terms for the average car on the road today.
If you are referring to the range shown at 100%, that isn't an indicator of the battery degradation. Not saying that it's much more than that, it's probably closer to 10-12%. https://sites.google.com/view/scanmytesla/home is a better way to check the degradation, however the only real measurement is if one drives the car down to 0% SoC.
didnyou look st yhebend of quarter volumes - just like in us Tesla delivers way more cars in march, june, sept, that other momths - like 1500 vs 200 vs. other months...which easily out paces thev178 unit run rate of the etron.
what I did learn was that the e-Golf, Smart, BMW i3 and Zoe are big sellers, but in terms of 200+ mile EV's the Model 3 sales are about 2.25x times more than eTron. And eTron's annual total sales is about 1 quarters worth of e-Golf sales.
@acoste - your own source disagrees with your conclusion…
Highlights:
Tesla Model 3 ultra dominant with a share of more than 25% of all EV sales in Europe. The brand is aiming for between 75.000 and 100.000 deliveries of the Model 3 this year, and that is a very attainable goal with 65.000 deliveries after three quarters.
The Audi e-Tron is doing very well, already outselling the Jaguar I-Pace and doubling the sales of the Tesla Model S, down 48% as the Model 3 is stealing all the attention (and customers). The Model X is down 29% on the Model 3 and e-Tron effect.
the Model S and X sales are flagging given higher prices and age - so that I agree with - but by all accounts the Model 3 is the dominate EV.
Let me help you read: "Audi has a long way to go to reach its goal of 40% of sales being PEVs by 2025."
"PEVs" = not just the e-tron
"by 2025" = in 5 years from now
Acoste, the basic “argument” constantly brought up when discussing range of an EV, reviews, news outlets will cite that the average daily commute is 40 miles. So one doesn’t need 200 miles of range because that more than covers the avg commute. Many people agree with this and at least one person on this thread even said that they weren’t concerned about the Taycan’s rating because their commute was all of 20 miles. That anyone going more than 200 miles would take another car or fly. So essentially the logic behind that is that one only needs enough “fuel” to cover their daily driving. My rhetorical question about a gas tank with just enough gas to do 40 miles, was to point out that no one wants just enough “fuel”.
I fully understand that the rated range at 100% SOC is not a absolutely true representation of a battery’s health. However that as owners, is the only measure we have. We all know what our displayed rated range was when new, and we all know/can find out what it is over time. I also fully understand that if one constantly keeps the battery between 70 to 90%, the algorithms get wonky and the displayed miles can become “off”. So to “reset” things one would need to run the battery down to below 10% and charge back up to 100%. Perhaps having to do that a couple of times. Basically one needs to exercise/flex their battery from time to time.
Let me help you read: "Audi has a long way to go to reach its goal of 40% of sales being PEVs by 2025."
"PEVs" = not just the e-tron
"by 2025" = in 5 years from now
Read the whole article. Audi is clearly struggling with the ETron sales vs. expectations.
If that's the metric to judge whether a product is a sale loser or not, then those Ford Dodge Chevrolet pickup trucks are the biggest losers then. Most dealers have lots full of them and they are also always getting price cut.
As Dave said above, different sales model. Audis typically do not have a lot of cash on the hood. Domestic pickups almost always have a ton. It's just their business model.
And that's just one indicator of the ETron. There may be a wait where you are, but it's hard to get the E-Golf where I am. Because they don't sell it in TX! So availability in your area may be simply indicative of a low regional supply.
Nonetheless, if you look at sales figures vs. projections, the car is not doing well.
Before the e-Tron and the close to zero sales figure of the Jaguar I-Pace, what else is for sale in the EV SUV segment again? None. If you want a EV SUV, you are forced to buy a Model X period. That's 100% market share in anyone's book. Now even as you say the segment had increased, but that's also with the addition of the e-Tron and I-Pace, doesn't matter how you do the math, Tesla's market share in that segment still drops to 55% from 100%.
Here's how I do the math:
We start with 100K units, all Tesla, = 100% market share
Audi sells 40K units, mostly from ICE SUV's - so market size expands to 140K.
Tesla market share = 100/140 = 71%
But we both agree that Tesla isn't losing material sales to Audi, and that the etron is no threat to Tesla sales (even though I think the etron is pretty great).
12-16-2019, 12:44 AM
