Bob Roberts

say wut?

i am agreeing with your often repeated point implying that A multi billion dollar company spending thousands of dollars measuring performance is unusual. Something suspicious maybe?

I don’t think any other firms measure performance.

here I am agreeing with you and you rudely call me names. That is sad.

Bob Roberts

i don’t follow epa ratings so I don’t know

however, I do follow safety and Musk recently claimed a car was safer than what the NHTSA actually said based on looking at the NHTSA data. Wasn’t even willing to spend thousands on a separate study (maybe they didn’t have the money)

the NHTSA had to issue a cease and desist letter. Lol.

Needsdecaf

If that is the case I apologize. I certainly didn’t read it that way. Sounded like you were accusing me of being a conspiracy theorist. But that’s the downside of the Internet, hard to read intent....my bad.

cometguy

Lots of posters here on Rennlist (almost all of whom are Porsche owners) have BEVs in addition to their Porsches; read the threads here under "Taycan & Mission-E", including especially the "Tesla Existential Threat?" thread. I find the threads here more interesting than the threads on Tesla forums, in fact. And there are many like myself who have a PHEV (and I have over a year's experience plugging in nightly/daily with my 2018 Panamera E-Hybrid), which also counts as EV experience. My first BEV is not going to happen for a couple of years, until I can get a good look at the interesting Cross Turismo and Macan BEVs. But I think that most people posting on Rennlist who do own a BEV also own one or more vehicles with ICEs, as well. Few BEV owners that I know of will drive more than a couple hundred miles from home; they either fly, take a train, or take an ICEV (or PHEV) on those longer trips; few BEV owners want to deal with the hassles of public chargers while driving long distances, and that will continue for some years to come. (Yes, we know that people do take long road trips in their BEVs, but I'd wager only about 5% or less of BEV owners really do so.) Where public chargers are sorely needed are not so much in rural areas along interstate highways as they are in inner-city areas where many residents don't have access to garages for charging nightly; BEVs will not become a majority of vehicles sold until we have chargers on city streets as common as parking meters.

As for the criticism of Porsche for coming out with the Taycan Turbo and Taycan Turbo S first, at their crazy prices, I think that was well calculated by Porsche. They followed quickly (within a few weeks) by unveiling the Taycan 4S at 2/3 the price of the Turbos, and I hope that they follow up quickly also this next year with a couple more Taycan trims under $100k; we know that the RWD "Taycan" is coming, probably around $90k, and I'm wondering if they'll also have a "Taycan 4" somewhere in between the 4S and the RWD Taycan. But many people (myself included) aren't all that into "mere" 4-door sedans and really want a hatchback; I bought a Sport Turismo last year and (as I said above) I'm waiting for either the Cross Turismo or the Macan BEV, so will pass on the Taycans promoted so far.

manitou202

Until Taycan's are out in the wild and in the hands of journalists to do direct comparisons versus other EV's all we can do is speculate what the real world range will be.

But let's assume for a minute that it's range is accurate according to the EPA results and it gets 201 miles only under ideal conditions. Real world maybe 160-170 miles and 130-140 in cold weather.

There is a real chance that Porsche will have some really pissed off customers and negative press if a bunch of stories of stranded Porsche owners start popping up. If you haven't paid close attention to the EV world for the past decade, there are plenty of stories of early adopters running into issues. Many of the Taycan owners will be first time EV owners and will experience the learning curve.

They need to be very careful about exaggerating the range and the reliability of the charging infrastructure.

SFsoundguy

You are correct the eTron dose indeed have minimal regen when charged to 100% to day I was 100% with a stated range of 172 and when engaged to full could feel minimum regen engage. Its much more noticeable then the full charge percentage drops

SFsoundguy

PHEV or Hybird owner or one with a ICE car as well as an BEV would never have to worry about range as a whole, performance maybe but range is not an issue for them if they want to go on a long trip just take the hybird or ICE. Im talking about 100% EV only owners who only have EVs. You very quickly learn to change you driving habits and routs and in some cases even drive less because you are limited by time or percentage of charge. Yes I could buy a gas car for emergencies like the PG&E outages but would rather wait until BEVs have a range of around 300. Currently I have 3 EVs so I dont have to worry about having a charged car I still have to plan regarding range. I was just looking forward to a Taycan that could do 270 miles and be driven hard and deliver miles of fun.

Bob Roberts

given that diesel gate thing, that certainly is an understatement. That is why it is interesting they sent the email highlighting the other study. I would expect their lawyers and PR people would be all about “better be 110% sure on this”.

as for the reliability for infrastructure, is electrify America a subsidy of VAG? Or separate and just funded by the settlement? They may have influence but not direct control. Don’t know

Needsdecaf

As someone directly affected by Dieselgate, I err on the side of Porsche checked this study REALLY hard before publishing. Either that or they are a bunch of fools, which I find hard to believe.

Whoopsy

Taycan 4 is coming. As for the RWD variant, it does seems that it will be RoW only.

Porsche sent out Taycan PDFs to all North American dealers back in June. It only goes down to Taycan 4.

Whoopsy

Posted for you before, here it is again.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/04/elon...h-in-cash.html

Very contrary to what you claimed before, that he doesn't have debt against his stock holdings.

And I never said anything about pump and dump. I also didn't say he sold any stocks. Don't put words in my mouth.

I only said he regular comes out to say something to prop up the stock price whenever it get close to margin call range. He needs to keep the stock price up to prevent those calls against his own personal death and Tesla.

Whoopsy

This is like saying your side door is only 4 feet tall, instead of walking around to go in through the full size front door, you learn to duck under instead.

RonF

What is that? Where did it say Elon borrowed "heavily" against his stock holdings? Now you're inventing the margin call story. With $20 billion net worth Elon will never having to worry about margin call for a loan of tiny fraction of his net worth. Not even TSLA goes to 100 or even 0.

AlexCeres

Elon absolutely does have debt against his Tesla holdings. And “a lot” in absolute terms to plebes. This has been widely reported to both SEC and court depositions. https://seekingalpha.com/article/425...are-price-soon

however he also has a ridiculous amount of Tesla stock, many billions, and isn’t going to face a margin call unless Tesla goes bankrupt. $500 million in a line of credit for someone worth $10B is basically behind the sofa cushions pocket change.

acoste

Margin call doesn't equal bankruptcy. High net worth does not mean margin call won't happen which is only related to the share price.
Tesla has a policy that its officers can't use more than 25% of their holdings as collateral. If Elon has $10B in TSLA, he could use max $2.5B of it as collateral. The lender won't give $2.5B cash for that because TLSA is very volatile and they want to make sure the loan is secured even if the share price drops. Therefore the max loan might be 33% of it, say $100/share or about $0.8B. If the share price drops below $100 it will trigger a margin call. It won't cause him going bankrupt, but he will be forced to sell some shares (assuming what he said is true that he doesn't have much cash).
Since he hasn't sold any shares this year, the margin is lower than $177/share. Possibly a lot less than that.