Macca

That sure is an interesting way to value a car John. That would certainly make your Herman worth 115k and my 993 200k ;-)

Unfortunately it's hard to get back modification money on resale. To think you can get back maintenance money...well it takes a rare bird to value that in the used maker so it often seems...

Macca

Personalised plates have a "two for one " promotional deal till 30 July.

If anyone wants a custom euro plate for effectively $600, PM me as we can go halves in the deal. It's a good deal and not to be repeated...

John McM

Not mods or maintenance. Basic presentation of a near original condition car that needs nothing. Strong compression motor, gearbox that shifts like new, interior and exterior unblemished. You and I know how much it would cost to get an average condition 25 year old car to that condition and there would almost certainly be $ lost in the process, even with the relatively buoyant market. Paul is the only one I can think of in our group that paid up for that type of older car. He had already done it the other way with the 993.

With respect to Herman the market value is irrelevant. Not selling it and know if I did it would take a bath. Everything I have spent is about life long ownership. I took it for a short drive this afternoon after two weeks in Dingo land and it reminded me this all I need and want in a car. The project car is another matter. At some stage it will be sold so I keep track of market data. I'm also being careful with the spend e.g. New air con would be nice, but if 60% of 964 owners don't have working air con then it's evidently not a full value add for most. The most recent data point on a nice C4 is $70k offer turned down. I imagine it would have changed hands for $75k. Last tipo trade was three weeks ago at $60k.

Macca

So we have 70-75 for a C4, 75-80 for a C2 and 60K for a tipo?

The tipo seems expensive?

Actually they all seem expensive given every one of them you or I would likely have tipped another 20k into them to get them to "our standard".

I can't recall what the last good 993 6 speed sold for but I believe it was the minter C4 in midnight blue owned by Peter who frequented here occasionally. Sold Nov 2015 for 83k with around 90k km on it, ex Sing but a real tidy example with full paint done and real $$$ into it. Pauls was 4 months earlier for 85 similar exterior condition and mileage NZ new and resold around 95k net Jan this year. So I would be putting a good 993 C2 at around 100k. But the two examples I've mentioned were in very good condition.

It will be interesting to see if the changes in the UK market have any bearing.

A good manual 964 over there is now cheaper than NZ from the pricing above (a uk new 964 C2 I know with 87000 miles and subject to a comprehensive refurb 5 years ago and with some nice suspension updates, just traded hands via a few folk on these boards for 36k GBP which was understood to be a fair realistic price. So 65k NZD!

If the pound reaches 0.58 in the next 9 months and the classic market tanks (both have at least 50% certainty today) we could find cars being exported from UK to NZ!

Wouldn't it be ironic if a Porsche collector here bought back your old 3.6T next year from the UK! Not likely but an bettering change in market dynamics is possible...

John McM

As Jay Leno said "the luxury cars of the early 20th Century were made at a time when technology was expensive and labour was cheap. Nowadays it's the opposite". If you are inclined to want a really 'sorted' example you either get the spanners or wallet out as few are in that condition and those that are are not for sale. Mind you, spannering for yourself doesn't avoid the high parts prices so that's only partially true.

The problem with having a sorted car for me is that it's very hard to accept less after that. The project car is a good example as I can no longer accept old shocks, frunk and boot lids that won't stay up etc. Now I will be looking at Herman's interior with new eyes

If I was daily commuting I'd say a Tipo 964 is an excellent choice. However they are getting old enough now that they are mostly weekend cars, where it's about the connection with the car. That dynamic appears to be widening the price differential, giving a $15k gap between them and a same condition C4.

So much is written about the 'pure' handling a of C2 versus C4 and they are so relatively rare that I think a C2 would be another $15k above a same condition C4. So $60k, $75k, $90k.

Before owners get glazed eyes or alternatively non owners get derisive, that's for a car that needs nothing, but isn't perfect. Everything (except maybe air con) needs to work and no deferred maintenance.

I could, but won't, go through any car now and instantly see its faults and give costs to fix. I won't because you lose friends quickly pointing out cars faults. With many cars that could swing a value $10k ~ $15k.

Examples
Dodgy alternator $900
Munted engine fan $900
Old shocks $3,000 (minimum)
Gauge refurb $1,000+
New carpet $2,500+
Gearbox rebuild $15k
Engine top end $15k
Glass out respray $15k+
New windscreen $3k
Clutch $3,000 (more if DMF has gone)
Engine mounts $600
Major service $2,500+

The smart buyer will know these and pay up for one that is done or doesn't need the expensive items. That's of course if there is choice and that's the bug bear when there isn't any. How do you compare two cars when only one is for sale? What if you know the faults but someone else doesn't and is willing to pay a sorted price? Do you wait another year? In your 30s yes, in your 50s less so are you have fewer years left.

A long diatribe before I get stuck into the project car again. Tunnel carpet goes in today after more soundproofing goes in.

John McM

Pics. Carpet is only test fitted here. Sound proofing is 60% installed. Hopefully tonight I will have pics to share of the Centre carpets all fitted with the Function first gear **** on.

For anyone lurking that hasn't seen a carpet less car, the tunnel soundproofing is foam covered by rubber sheeting. The rust look is actually old contract cement. That portion was the only part of the old interior I kept.

Macca

Well argued and your logic here seems sound. I have to agree with all these points. I could go even longer on that list because I'm a Virgo and everything in my cars must work perfectly including the a/c lol!

Project car is looking good. If yourself and Doug did a deal with Griffiths and lined up all three cars and put aside a weekend together you could likely bring the ac on your cars to factory new or better for less than $1000 each car doing the work yourself all three together same time including o rings, Kuell condenser, drier and gas. That's a 2k retail job half price and I'm sure it would pull the 1k spent on resale as their are so few 964 with this feature working....

In regards to whether the value is there for a 75k 964 C4 in good nick that will still need money spent on mileage related mechanicals in the future it really depends on ones requirements, time, budget and use age and is a very personal thing. It does make 85k for a Cayman R look relatively good value for someone not hooked on the 911 and air cooled thing, but if ot then as you say the choice is somewhat limited...

Macca

P.S. Reminder if someone wants a cheap deal on a personalised plate before 30 July...

Moody blue

I think you hit the nail on the head there , the 964 was relatively drama free and simply did the job well , when I drive my play cars I want it to be engaging / dramatic ( in the case of the TVR , if you believed everything you read , you should make sure your affairs and last will are in order before any drive and doubly so in the wet ) and so I guess that's why some of my other cars work better in that respect.

Damn Porsche and their overly competent cars

gt38088

the state of the UK car market is going to be really interesting over the next couple of months. I think the sudden brexit downdraft in sharemarkets and currency certainly gave everyone a fright. Sharemarkets are back up although currency not. Perhaps the indicator on car prices might be property in UK. Interest rates down for longer for sure but if property prices stay soggy then the writing is on the wall.

A few of the car punters (geared or ungeared) will get shaken out near term but low interest rates might see this as a correction before a blast off to higher highs in GBP terms but maybe not in NZD or USD. Going to be interesting either way.

Obsessed

That's certainly a bit more palatable than the usual prices. Is that for the Focus? I've been reading about it in evo magazine recently, sounds like a wicked car.

Macca

Yes Michael for the Focus RS. I have a 6 digit sequence of random letters in mind that should prove almost impossible for someone to take down at a quick glance he he he!

The press on the car has been overwhelmingly favourable at its price point. However I'm reserving my judgement till I've driven it a bit. I've found over the years that buying cars purely on motor noters plaudits is a fools errant. A number of cars I've owned I was disappointed in whereas the press were jubilant. By way of example Audi RS2 and (back in the day) 996 GT3 (to be fair I was comparing to my prior 993 & 993 RS and found the flimsy trim and questionable exterior aesthetics a personal challenge, the engine was superlative but the ride on fast B NZ roads was scary when pushing on). Funny how time makes the heart grow fonder for many of the press, and us enthusiasts alike.

Goes to show how personal it all is. A few of my "surprise cars" we're the 993 which fit like a glove the first time I drove it, my 1998 WRX which was an awesome machine especially in chilly damp mornings (if the Focus RS delivers at least equal I will be glad) and the e39 M5 which I wasn't expecting much from but which charmed us so much as a comfortable touring car and DD with its creamy torquey v8 that when the mood took you could be driven like a much smaller more focussed sports car defying it's weight (DSC off it did sideways real well too) that we shed that same car twice over 8 years!

So jury is out on Focus RS till I've driven it a bit. I've no doubt it's good but wether it sums me may be another the Ng. Age, lifestyle and use age are all changing variables. It could even prove to be too "young" for me. To be honest I still kinda have my heart set on the Alfa Giulia QV, but the reality is its outside my budget by a fair stretch - in NZ it threatens to be a 160k car new optioned up and I really can't see how to justify that for an Alfa. But the way the GBP is right now it could be possible to land an ex dealer demo from the UK in late 2017 around 100k which could be more palatable...

Macca

Agreed Graeme. I think it's too early to tell on the UK economy. Also depends if they can curtail an official recession. Commercial property trusts are under duress. The FTSE has bounced nicely but question is, is this a dead cat bounce? Currency has stabs,used somewhat since BOE announcement (the right call till fresh data prints IMO) but it's almost without doubt they need to lower. Will 25 basis points off an existing plus 50 make a difference in terms of "cheap money". I doubt it. With transatlantic businesses reconsidering their UK fixtures and strongholds, flight of capital on future devaluation risks etc I can only see volatility for the UK in the next 18 months and some pretty lean times from GDP & inflation. Many didn't realise the London financial industry is bigger than New York, fewer still had any clue how Brexit could lead to kneecapping the economy and potentially stuffing it up for next 10 years. Jo and I are UK citizens and were horrified at the vote. In truth on a 1.8% majority based in a 66% participation I personally don't believe the referendum should have been called on the marginality of the tally. I've spoken to a number there that say the general populace were ignorant to the rams fixations and saw it simply as a "keep Britain from the foreigners" vote. Fair enough to some degree but that horse bolted in the 60s, 70s and 90s! Longer term I'm sure UK will be stronger for it but unless the rest of the EU implodes I can only think it will be a tough environment to trade.

As to what it does to collectors car values there I guess it's like looking at the tea leaves. At least with LHD gear you have a number of healthier economies (US, Germany etc) to exit your stock too when things are tough at home. With RHD you are limited because Sing and HK are off the cards (can't import used etc). India may be a bright spot in the future but that's a way off and they still favour the latest.

I'll watch with interest. My call on the GBP is that it will loose another 5% by year end. Interest rates will be 0-25 bp by year end, economy will be borderline recession. From there on it will be up to how well Boris and the Brexit Eurosceptics and negotiate with the EU and if anyone outside EU is willing to "play" with them in trade until the EUs view on this is fully understood. Right now China and others seem to be eying the gap the UK will leave behind but I think it's way to early to be scalp hunting. Still a lot of water under the bridge and there is still a possibility UK will emerge stronger for it quicker than expected but I think the odds remain against that and I fact more towards the event possibly de stabilising Europe and global growth which in turn may create further volatility on the US, Japanese and Chinese markets.

Kiwi Carguy

Lucky you're not in Ozzie mate! http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...stralian-news/

So when are we doing the Targa in it?

Leong72

March 2017 since there's no SITT. Should be well run in by then