TraqGear

Yeah, I kinda restated some of the obvious...just putting in my experience and how I try to instruct. Your statement above needs to be posted on every DE wall in the country. Having a lot of unnecessary BS to do is a huge buzzkill for the student and instructor.

Ya know, looking at all of this info, you guys have enough wisdom and talent right here to put together a short, yes short please, procedural manual on things that are common at every DE that can make things safer and more fun. Why doesn't someone put together something from suggestions and post it for review and scrutiny. You guys are "in the field" and that's where all the best and most pragmatic ideas come from. Then see how it matches up to current instructor manuals.

e9stibi

I tend to agree. In addition, it was quite crowded when I drove in it and effective traffic management was an ongoing issue (including "drag racing" on the straights). Night and day difference cpmpared to the highest run group.

KevinGross

Zbb, yes, the idea that novice groups have some relief in terms of safety equipment is one that my home region has worked with for some years. There have been different things said and done over the years with respect to requiring fire extinguishers, allowing race tires, etc.

Not to pick at your words, but for us it hasn't been so much a numbers game, ie, getting enough participants: we do fine there. Rather, the thinking as I understand it has been more around making it easier for first-time and casual participants to take part, making the program more accessible to the region. YMMV.

Kevin
Catellus Engineering

fhp911

I think the fundamental element of the 'electronic nannies' issue hasn't been addressed: The nannies clearly can/do let the student feel more capable than he/she really is by correcting errors.

BUT in this era of 400+hp cars, the underlying truth is that there would be many more crashes without the aids. I had a student with a Boxster who recently graduated to Yellow/Solo. She wasn't very competent but another instructor promoted her from Green. She immediately ordered a 991 GT3. I am absolutely convinced that without the nannies in that car, she would crash soon.

SO ... nannies do impede learning, but they also prevent crashes. Thus they are worth it.

Maybe a solution to the dilemma is to encourage instructors to have the students turn them off after they have demonstrated a degree of competence and monitor the results?

Comments anyone?

993inNC

When I took my Boxster (yes Boxster) out for the first time at RRR afer years of tracking a 993, it drove me crazy having the nannies on board. Would take me a couple laps each session to remember to turn them off. They SUCK! Couldn't understand why I couldn't drive the way I usually do, then I'd recall the nannies where present or I'd see the lights flashing briskly. I can see how in a more powerful car, nannies could really give a false sense of security. I could almost drive RRR with my foot to the floor every corner because the nannies would kick in and squelch my inputs...

I suppose it could be a good tool for allowing a newbie to learn a new track, but can't see allowing them to really flourish before reminding them of the reality of no nanny and turn them off to really teach.

DOUGLAP1

WTF, I'm reporting you to the 986forum for diss'ing Boxsters. I don't have any nannys on mine, and I eat up 993's and 996's on a regular basis...

993inNC

NOOOOOooooooo! Clearly you've never met me on track in a proper 993! And for the record, I "diss'ed: nothing. Everyone on this board with any history knows me as a 993 guy, just wanted to be clear i wasn't still tracking the '3 and was now in a Box. It could be construed as confusing since I used to run a small hobby business here (DACH) that did custom exhaust for 993's......no one expects me in a Boxster. You've been corrected......

BTW what do you mean you don't have any on yours? You can permanently disable them? Or......?

sbelles

Not all Boxsters had TC or PSM but yes, TC is like dragging an anchor around the track.

Courtshark

Great discussion. Only 3 track weekends here, so not a whole lot to add. IIRC, only one other response mentioned the classroom sessions. I've found these to be incredibly useful. Perhaps I've been blessed with two groups that make a serious effort with the classroom sessions, including keeping them entertaining.

But on that note, I'd highly recommend adding video examples to explain difficult or troublesome corners. Most tracks seem to have a few notorious turns. Why not take a few videos demonstrating the proper entry point, turn out, etc, for classroom demonstration purposes. There should also be a "greatest hits" collection of stupid moves to avoid (such as that crazy BMW track video was saw a few months back where one guy basically pitted the other).

Manifold

Good safety video focusing on harnesses and head/neck restraint:

993inNC

While that sounds like a reasonable request, corners can be different for everyone and every car and is really better experienced than shown on video. I also don't take my students out in my car until the weekend is over. Nothing worse than showing a student a true speed of a track before they are ready. Taking someone out before they're ready just makes them try it for themselves and usually ends in them going backwards (literal and figurative).
There's usually youtube videos you can watch on your own time which I would recommend as a primer to a weekend. If nothing else it gets you familiar with the track.

TraqGear

If that isn't eye opening.... Thanks for posting. There has to be a way to incorporate a little more safety into DE's without compromising the fun aspect. For me, when I'm strapped in with a HANS, I can focus more on driving and it doesn't hamper me at all. I feel a little naked without them. Several have died from basilar skull fracture without a mark on them. The below is old data, but still illustrates how vulnerable we are to neck injury since study was in the years before the HANS was mandated, 96-00: (http://bjsportmed.com/content/38/5/613.full.html)

TraqGear

Sounds like you guys are a tad ahead of the curve. Please share your program. If you have something that works AND is safer that is something worth sharing.

Manifold

When I was in the lower run groups and learning new tracks, I found it helpful to watch videos of incidents at those tracks to learn which corners had higher risk and what the consequences of mistakes would be. Tell a student to not lift especially in Turn X and they might lift a little to see what happens; show them a video of how somebody wrecked when they lifted in that turn and I suspect that most students will be less likely to lift.

I take students for demo rides as needed at any point during events, and IMO the key to know the purpose of the ride and demonstrate exactly that. Sometimes a demo ride will be fairly slow and intended to just show smoothly driving the line. Other times a demo ride will be intended to show a good intermediate driver how things feel when the pace is a bit faster. But for risk management, I never drive my own max pace when I have a passenger in the car.

Gary R.

It's my belief that telling a student what NOT to do, or "don't do XX", is not a good idea.. I keep my instructions (and his mind) focused on what he should be doing, but maybe that's just me.. Not sure scare tactics, especially for someone just starting out, is a good idea either.