mglobe

Our region runs four student groups. Conventional wisdom here is that the second to the highest group (which we call yellow) is the most dangerous. These tend to be students who have some skills and speed but don't know as much as they think they know. Anecdotally, we do seem to see more asshattery in that group, and the most recent serious incidents have been in yellow. It makes sense that this might be the most dangerous run group, but we don't have meaningful statistics to prove that.

LuigiVampa

I think the biggest problem with safety at DE are people with newer cars which have traction control and other driving aids which allow people to drive far beyond their skill.

Manifold

Is that four instructed groups? PCA regions I've run with have two or three instructed groups, two being more common.

993inNC

Standard issue is green, blue, white, black and red

mglobe

Four instructed groups. In the upper run groups the students are cleared to run solo, but we still provide instructors for all of those groups. Folks in the upper groups will get an instructor riding with them at least once or twice at each event. We also have a coaching program where students can get up to four sessions with an instructor with them. We've gotten very positive feedback on this program. It really helps the advanced students raise their game to a new level.

paradocs98

Absolutely. In my experience, Nissan GTR drivers are often the worst offenders. Super fast, super capable car that practically drives itself, and requires very little skill to get up to speed (and in trouble) quickly.

Manifold

That's what I've seen most commonly with PCA in the Mid-Atlantic and NE. Green and Blue are fully instructed but can be soloed for part of an event, White is intermediate and solo but may still have an instructor for some sessions, Black and Red are advanced solo and include instructors.

Relative to the five groups described above, I like the idea of White drivers having an assigned instructor for at least a session or two (and also riding with the instructor), and doing something similar even for Black and Red drivers (eg, the better club racers can serve as coaches).

TXE36

I think "Yellow" is the TX PCA regions' term for "Knows just enough to be dangerous". Speeds are up, consequences more serious, and skills aren't quite there. I know I went through it and it is a necessary rite of passage to get to the advanced levels.

I was at an event (not PCA) where the Yellows were doing enough dumb stuff that I ended my session early as I was just not comfortable being out there with them.

-Mike

rlm328

This may be the standard for your region, however in our region we use the designators:
Green - Always instructor in car
Blue - Initially instructor in car, first solo runs
Yellow - Intermediate, occasional ride along
White - Advanced, occasional ride along
Red - Instructor

Personally I think Yellow is the most treacherous due to the large difference in driving ability of the people arriving from Blue and those headed to the advanced group. As a side note the more driving time a driver has, usually their car has fewer bells and whistles.

kurt M

I hear this repeated over and over for many makes of cars that have advanced nannies from GT-R to GT-3. Does anyone have real data that proves this? My experience is anecdotal as I suspect is most everyones. I have not had one bit of trouble with students in high nanny cars and have been able to teach performance driving in them just the same. Is there any basis to the "Electronic cars inhibit learning" saw? Perhaps they help promote learning. I have spent entire weekends working on helping a student regain confidence after a simple 2 wheel off or tail wag. Rather than advancing we spend track time simply regaining what was lost. This is most pronounced in the early learning phase.
You assume the "better" club racers are also better instructors. This is at times not the case. You are asking the black and red instructors to be formally assigned and instruct other black and red drivers? How will that work? Do you plan to ask instructors not only instruct in green or blue but to also hot seat or skip their own runs in order to do this? As it is now the instructors can run with each other as they see fit. This has worked well for many years and as near as I can tell we are happy with it. This method lets us pick when and who we ride with while on our own personal track time. Most of the groups I have driven with have dropped instructors in the white cars from time to time.

Manifold

I'm not suggesting formally assigning instructors/coaches to Black and Red drivers. More like urging (borderline requiring) that each Black/Red driver ride with someone and have someone ride with them at least once at each event, and maybe making a list of drivers who are recognized to be especially good at driving and instructing, and willing to do so, to serve as coaches for Black/Red drivers. I do sometimes see drivers in Black, and sometimes even Red, who clearly need some coaching. No one should miss runs, Black and Red can ride with each other in White, Black, and Red as needed to avoid that.

kurt M

Then you are recomending we continue doing what is SOP now.

If you only sometimes see drivers that need more coaching you are not driving fast enough.

Veloce Raptor

I think we can all agree that every DE drover, including all instructors, can use a little to a lot of additional instruction and/or coaching...

mglobe

I guess we're off topic from DE Safety, but...

Could not agree more. The best driver is not always the best instructor, and in fact the best instructors are capable of helping improve drivers with talents that may be greater than theirs in my opinion.

Our region has advanced instructors (AI's) who's sole duty is to ride with the two upper run groups (yellow and white in the parlance of our times). The AI's do not ride with the beginners. Our "coaches" are our most experienced AI's, and they ride with yellow and white coaching candidates as well as sometimes with instructors.

tomburdge

^+1
Always felt that if for example Jack Nicklaus and Tiger woods can have swing coaches, I and the rest of us mortals can always benefit from a 'watchful eye".
I certainly did when I had you seating in my right seat. Thanks again David.

Tom B.