I have see too much asshatery on cool down laps to venture more than peeking through my fingers until the car is at least in the grid lane.

Can't say I have ever pondered positive thoughts while saying "Both feet in" Once I did add in a "Please" and after we stopped without undue cost to all involved a "Thank you".

 

I save all my asshatery for Rennlist.

 

Your breasts, fella.

 

In my experience, this varies considerably with the organization. Some are a bit lax, but others have fairly high standards for instructors and run good events.

 

Im basically new here and going to be doing my first DE this year, and am constantly thinking about my first drive - on track or the possibility that avatar brings. Absolutely perfect.

 

Not that there is anything wrong with that.....

 

Wow, a lot of different directions on this thread!

Couple observations as a 20 year DE participant, instructor, club racer...

- I would have to say that overall, I think the PCA DE program is EXTREMELY safe and well run. Sure, each region does it a bit differently, but I have participated in events in dozens of regions and overall, they really focus on safety first. Do incidents occur? of course they do, we are driving cars at high rates of speed, not riding tricycles...

- I've considered the driver aids on cars a lot and been part of our region and other region discussions on how to approach that as an instructor. One thought that keeps coming to mind is: these cars were BUILT with those aids in mind, so does turning them off make the car even MORE dangerous to drive vs. a car that never had them to begin with? Consider power steering - in a non power steering car, it's fairly easy to steer. But lose power steering in a car built with it, and it becomes almost impossible to steer. What really happens if you turn off all the systems designed to contain/control all that horsepower? Not the early ones that were add-ons to regular cars, but the newer ones that are designed into the entire performance envelope of the car. Taking away a design component may really upset the car...

- As an instructor, you should ALWAYS be in 100% control of the situation. If I start to pucker a bit, I back the student down. Don't want to slow down when I say to? We go in and have a chat. Period. I am here to INSTRUCT, you are here to LEARN. This is called DRIVER EDUCATION for a reason. I want my student to have fun, learn something, and go home with their car in the same way they came, ready to sign up for the next event. For beginners, I probably hold them back a bit, but until they prove to me they are completely in control, we are not exploring anyone's limits...

- 993NC, I disagree with the blinker idea...especially since my car does not have them, as many/most race cars don't. As was noted: its easy to accidentally hit the turn signal and never know it, riding around "turning" to the right/left all day (if people don't know its on doing 70 on the highway, what are the chances you'd know doing 120??) . Then what? what do people do that are behind you? Also, which side do you pass on? The blinking side or is that the way the leading car is moving? And finally, cars in NY don't have turn signals anyway - or if they do I've never seen anyone from NY use them..

Back on topic:
- Considering the goals of DE (fun and learning), do you believe that DEs you participate in are safe enough? Yes

- Have you found DE safety to be staying the same, improving, or getting worse over the years? If it hasn't stayed the same, why the change? Improving

- Is the incident rate higher in any particular run group(s)? Why do you think that is? While we'd all like to say White (or whatever the low/medium solo group is) I think there are equal amount of incidents in the upper groups too: people pushing limits of both themselves and their cars.

- What have you found to be the key contributors to safety incidents (related to organizational culture, DE rules and procedures, tech, driver, instructor, car, car/driver safety systems, track layout and condition, track runoff and safety features, etc.)? Fatigue, cold tires, cold track, damp track, to name a few

- What can/should be done to most effectively improve safety, without overly impeding fun, learning, and participation in DEs? In the end, I think the organizations do a very good job. Eventually, people have to be responsible for their own actions.

 

The things you named are part of the problem, but not the root cause. I would argue those are all symptoms of bad judgement and/or lack of skill on behalf of the driver.

 

I agree, in fact, I would say a vast majority of the incidents on a DE weekend are due to bad judgement and/or lack of skill of the driver. But lets be honest, how many of us with lots of experience went out there thinking all was good only to have a little off into the grass/dirt on cold or wet conditions? Sometimes we're just lucky there's no barrier to hit...

The reality is....99.99% of us reading this thread and participating in DE events do this as a hobby, at most a dozen weekends a year. Good judgement and skill come with experience and time, neither of which most of us have. I've been doing this for over 20 years now, and I would bet that I don't have the amount of seat time that a dedicated driver has in a couple years...total. THEY focus on driving every day, WE focus on our jobs and other parts of our 'real' life. But, we are on the same tracks, with the same conditions, driving even lesser equipped cars. I honestly sometimes wonder why there aren't MORE incidents based on all that....

 

I see the same thing in my work. I do root canals on referral basis. I get referrals from docs who were doing root canals since I was in middle school. However since I've been doing nothing but root canals for the past 14 years, I've got so much "seat time" doing no other work that I have surpassed these other dentists in my level of expertise in this one area of dentistry.

 

Bob, Like I said, it's not a perfect policy. I just think the sticking of the hand out the window is a crazy thing to ask someone to do at high speed. BUT I understand that it's probably the only activity everyone can do and is mostly universally recognized and understood

Keep in mind drivers of all types are always taught "10 and 2" and we instructors tell our students to keep their hands on the wheel unless shifting............oh but stick your arm out the window to point the guy behind you by........I know we are doing 120 down the strait, but..............

 

I have never felt it was dangerous to point someone by. And I get plenty of practice given the low hp of my car relative to a lot of the cars in my run group. My group allow full course passing and although I try to point by before entering a turn if I see the overtaking car in time, sometimes on long sweepers a Cup car or some other real fast car will come up on me mid turn, and I even feel comfortable pointing by in those situations.

 

Chris
With all due respect, and only because you were a 993 driver....I still disagree. With beginners we should be making sure they are in a straight line and comfortable before giving a pass signal. and with more advanced drivers, if they can't give a point by, then they need more instruction.

I think people keep forgetting, this is drivers EDUCATION, we as instructors are there to EDUCATE them. Part of that education is having the ability to check their mirrors, and give a quick point by to allow people by. Simple and effective. And if the driver can't master that, then they slow down and keep practicing. That's all part of the learning experience, not just going fast.

Using your argument, we teach people to focus forward, look ahead....oh, except when you have to look in your mirrors and TAKE YOUR EYES OFF THE ROAD to see if someone is behind you to let them pass. That is WAY more 'dangerous' than giving a quick hand out the window point by on a straight away.

Point byes are THE ONLY way of being consistent where every driver at every level can do the same thing.

 

I think what you are referring to is a feature, not a bug. As the lead car, if you have your hands and mind so full that you feel you can't do a point by, perhaps it's not a good time for one. It is a DE, not a race and passing needs to be done safely. If one cannot give enough point bys to keep a train from forming behind them, then they are in the wrong run group.

I know I do a quick gut check before putting my arm out the window, especially in open passing situations.

BTW, one of our former classroom instructor's sayings was 120 in the straight? My grandmother can do that! If 120 in the straight has one too occupied, what are the corners like?

-Mike

 

No one forgets to pull their arm back in or puts it out without knowing it. A blinker might be point by or might have been bumped. Unintended pass sig is a setup for M2M.

My 90 HP 1969 912 can hit 120 now and then with a tail wind. I used straights to relax and check mirrors and guages, get the paperback out of the glovebox and read a bit, grab the phone and check my voice and email, catch up on facebook and at VIR all in the same lap.