Manifold

I'm involved in the safety program for one of my clubs, and am interested in hearing people's experiences and ideas related to DE safety. Of course there are variations among clubs and tracks, but it should still be useful to have a discussion drawing on experiences from around the US (ok, Canada too ). So here are some general questions:

- Considering the goals of DE (fun and learning), do you believe that DEs you participate in are safe enough?

- Have you found DE safety to be staying the same, improving, or getting worse over the years? If it hasn't stayed the same, why the change?

- Is the incident rate higher in any particular run group(s)? Why do you think that is?

- What have you found to be the key contributors to safety incidents (related to organizational culture, DE rules and procedures, tech, driver, instructor, car, car/driver safety systems, track layout and condition, track runoff and safety features, etc.)?

- What can/should be done to most effectively improve safety, without overly impeding fun, learning, and participation in DEs?

911Königin

I am very new to all of this, but I do feel there is appropriate safety measures in place and fortunately, other than some spin offs, I have not witnessed any injuries in my run group.

RickBetterley

I've particpated in DEs for about 18 years now (yikes) and instructed for the last 10 perhaps. And I make my living in the risk management world.
Some thoughts:
- Considering the goals of DE (fun and learning), do you believe that DEs you participate in are safe enough? Yes; more safe is always a good goal, but I think the events are safe

- Have you found DE safety to be staying the same, improving, or getting worse over the years? If it hasn't stayed the same, why the change? Same

- Is the incident rate higher in any particular run group(s)? Why do you think that is? Good question; I'd like to see some data on this.

- What have you found to be the key contributors to safety incidents (related to organizational culture, DE rules and procedures, tech, driver, instructor, car, car/driver safety systems, track layout and condition, track runoff and safety features, etc.)? Loss of control over 'bad' drivers (defined as driving above their ability); could be improved by individual accountability, including loss of a run and (I hope this is not necessary) banishment. Too often a run group gets yelled at when really one or two drivers need to be taken aside. Many accidents, though, are just that - driver error that was not foreseeable (at least by organizers). Unfortunate but difficult to eliminate.
- What can/should be done to most effectively improve safety, without overly impeding fun, learning, and participation in DEs? See above

993inNC

I've always thought the idea of taking one's hands off the wheel to then stick your arm/hand out the window to give the driver behind "a finger point by" is a silly practice. We teach keep your eyes up, hands on the wheel unless shifting...........but do take time to stick your arm out of the window while at reasonably high speed to point to the next guy.........huh? We use built in blinkers on the road every day, but for some reason thats not acceptable while on track. Why can't we use a directional to tell the driver behind us which side you'd like them to pass you on?
Probably the least safest thing we DE'ers are required to teach and uphold.

Other than that, DE's tend to be pretty safe IMO

TRAKCAR

In a street car the windows should be CLOSED.
If they are so worried about getting me out of the car give them a freaking hammer.

Some ancient rules make you drive with the windows open, save for a few PCA regions who moved into the 21st century along with all track days in Europe.

I think overall very safe, except for a few freak accidents that I heard about, I have not seen more than a few scrapes and airbag burns in the last 10 years and 100's of track days.

Greg Phillips

#1 You should be on a straight when pointing other cars by so you should be able to handle it with 1 hand

#2 On the street you use your blinkers to tell people where you are planning to move to, now at the track you want to use them to tell people which side to pass them on?? It is not a safe plan.
Also there should be one point for each car you want to have pass, how do you do that with blinkers?? Or will the last car in line passing think it is for them just as you pull back into the line?

Greg

TRAKCAR

Plenty of groups have a mandatory immediate point by anywhere on track.
One if the safest groups I ever DE'd in was PBOC SuperSolo. Open passing no point by required. Very advanced drivers only. Self policed.

Rich Sandor

Regardless of rules and procedures, the #1 thing that determines event safety is the attitude of the drivers. It is the responsibilty of the organisers to ensure everyone is starting the event with the right attitude. I always say: its not a race, there are no f1 scouts here, and you do not have insurance coverage if you wreck. That usually gets everyone in the right mindset.

paradocs98

Good topic. My thoughts:

• When the format only allows for three run groups, or combines various run groups, I feel that "intermediate" is the least safe group. In the novice group, most drivers are taking it easy and slowly learning the ropes. In advanced, skill levels and discipline are much higher, and oftentimes drivers know many of their fellow drivers on track, so there is predictability. In intermediate, however, you can often see a mixing together of the just-out-of-novice driver, who is slower and less predictable, and the almost-ready-for-advanced driver, who is lapping much faster. The speed differential can create real problems.
• Instructors need to follow the same rules as all other drivers, and this needs to be enforced. I've witnessed instructors mixing in with other run groups to ostensibly police the group, but they themselves need policing--zig-zagging through traffic without a point-by, dive-bombing apexes, and other behavior that makes for a counterproductive DE experience.
• Not an on-track issue: I feel that event organizers need to be more assertive in policing behavior in the paddock. On more than one occasion I've been in a designated parking spot, working on my car with it jacked up, and have been buzzed by someone driving 40mph through the paddock, coming 3 feet away from my car. Sometimes people do this while driving out of lanes, through gaps in cars in the parking spaces. It's one thing to test your brakes, etc., at the far end of the paddock, away from everyone, but to drive like an *** so close to people working on their cars is so disrespectful.

Ok. I'm done.

Steve113

What he said x3

Rich Sandor - "Regardless of rules and procedures, the #1 thing that determines event safety is the attitude of the drivers. It is the responsibilty of the organisers to ensure everyone is starting the event with the right attitude. I always say: its not a race, there are no f1 scouts here, and you do not have insurance coverage if you wreck. That usually gets everyone in the right mindset. "

I see more of the incidents then anyone all over the country .
1) cars are to fast for drivers skills. Learning curve way to steep with todays cars.
2) Instructors that need instructors themselves - we have lots of accidents with instructors in the car - should almost never happen
3) Clubs that allow individuals to move up in class way before they are ready.
4) Its usually lack of basics that causes accident.
a) too fast for turn and/ or conditions (rain) with a bad line to begin with
b) turning in early dropping a wheel or wheels on exit
c) car not really properly prepped before going out on track

Safety all starts with proper instructors setting good examples. I cant tell you how many event I go to with all types of clubs and an instructor doesnt or can't even follow the right line. Even if they are in there own sessions they should be setting an example and helping those that are getting something wrong. I have and do tell others even that I race against how to better there lines. I don't care if its DE or racing it all starts with the basics you cant cheat on the basics.

993inNC

Yes I CAN, but green students should not be put in those types of situations.. They're scared enough as it is. As for straits.........As a long time instructor, I run with the big doggies and we pass everywhere not just the front strait It's a stupid requirement IMO no matter the run group.

The Audi Club of America has been using it for years from what I've been told and it works just fine. You leave the blinker on until the last car has passed. And if a driver at a DE can't differentiate between the street and the blinker being for their direction intentions as apposed to telling faster passing cars that they wish said driver to pass on the side the blinker is going off.......they need not be on track!

I think it's time we "un-dumb" some of the DE rules. As for windows down, I think its a safety issue as it pertains to broken glass upon impact as much as it is about yanking a driver/passenger from their seat. I don't mind the rule, unless its cold out I can deal with cold......can't deal with hurt or dead!

Veloce Raptor

+1 to all the above edited points

PS: arguing that point by's are "unsafe" is silly...please stop

MaxLTV

+1 for windows closed (I'm not an expert, though).

I've seen one DE accident where an arm got out of the window when the car hit a tire wall diagonally. The car hit a tire wall pretty much in front of my car, and at the moment of impact driver's hand got knocked off the wheel and into the window. The driver was mostly uninjured but at higher speed the arm could have been in trouble. I also had a quarter-sized tire marble stick to my sunglasses, right in front of an eye. I always run with helmet closed or big shutter-proof sunglasses, but many run open helmets in DE, and stuff can get thrown in the eyes. Closed windows seem safer.

In general, DEs seem safe.

Iridium

Tracks play a huge role in this; if you run at "professional" tracks they are typically setup to get spectators close to the action and have very little runoff room. If you're running at club tracks you can drive around in the grass for days.

If you put wheels off at Sears Point you're in the grass, downhill, with nothing but wall a few feet away. You are done.

I've seen more cars put into walls, rolled, what have you, from tiny errors over the years - just because there wasn't any room to recover. IMO you really enter the danger zone when someone is far enough along to be "signed off" but hasn't had much experience at a range of tracks. They get somewhere that doesn't have much room, and make a real mistake now that they are going fast enough, and it's all over.

Gator_86_951

Biggest issue is dangerous drivers that are not thrown out. Some ******* in a Ferrari ran my little brother off at Road Atlanta in the downhill turn before the front straight in an instructed group (the same turn where we saw a Toyota Atlantic guy die with a broken roll hoop when he was 6). I wasn't there, and it wasn't a PCA event (shocker there). Moneybags evidently actually crashed somebody out a few weeks later. Good thing for moneybags I wasn't around.