A few thoughts.

Instructors need to spend as much time with students off track than on track to set the right tone, attitude, and go over things that you cannot establish or explain in great detail during track time. Students have a lot to process at speed and not all is absorbed and that would help with their development.

Tracks need to be safer. I know it's a difficult situation for many clubs depending on the location and the available tracks but runoff areas, proper barriers, gravel pits, etc should be requirements to keep events safe. Difficult issue but if all clubs demanded safer tracks, you'd have track owners do the proper improvements. Summit point comes to mind where you can run into a deer on the track. That's unacceptable. WGI has some of the worst runoff areas.

Skid pad at each DE should be included. A few years ago I did it twice with BMWCCA at Shenandoah and I have to say that was one of the best learning experiences. They had dedicated instructors just doing that and they were teaching you how to induce and control understeer, oversteer, do throttle steering. Those track days were worth it just for that.

Have some activities, or informal classes if you will, scheduled for newer students to get to know each other and more advanced students. Creates camaraderie, students make new friends easier, have more fun, and at the same time they learn by sharing their on and off the track experiences.

 

I agree with points 1,3 and 4. #2 gets expensive and no one wants to pay any more than they are now as it is.
I try to spend chair time with my students if they wish. Take track maps and draw explanations out for them. Some don't show interest in that, sometimes there's not a lot of time for that. And maybe in not having the time or interest, there's a built in residual business for the organizers? Just saying.......

 

Are you suggesting that a club might attempt to keep learning to a minimum in order to ensure repeat business? I don't think that's a very good business model whether it's for profit or not.

As speeds said I tend to spend as much time with my students off track as they seem to want. Beginners seem to want more and the more advanced want less. It's too bad really since many of them, once moved to a solo group won't see another instructor for years. RTR does surprise ride alongs with the white (solo) students during a session which I think is a great idea.

As for turn signals: I did it once at Road America my first time there about a dozen years ago and I didn't care for it. Going into the kink in the wet, trying to let a heard of GT3s go by with the turn signal while not driving off the track is easier said then done. Three quick points would be take far less attention.

 

I think the business model as such doesn't tend to allow enough time (zero time if instructing two students) between sessions to spend much time off track. By the time one gets back to the pits and unshackles etc, there's maybe 15 minutes between either the instructors session etc (and green usually has class room time too). Hardly time to get into focused conversations with pictures and explanations.
I don't think it's an intended scenario, but clubs have to bring the #'s in to pay for the event and that means a lot of bodies and cars and not a lot of time. Is what it is

 

And we can raise the question of whether assigning two students reduces safety, due to wearing out instructors and less time spent with each student. We tell students to stay off the track if they're too tired to focus properly, but not so easy for a tired instructor to tell a student they can't go out because the instructor is too tired to focus.

 

I couldn't imagine being assigned to a skid pad all day long. Talk about a recipe for puke-o-rama!

I've had days when I had to beg off riding in friends cars at the end of the day due to not feeling great. Despite drinking a ton of water, being in my car, my student's cars, etc, I'm done by 4 pm...

 

We're trained to do a pointed download with a student after each session though, that download can be done in 5 min or less to discuss what went well, what needs work and what we are going to focus on the next session out. If you start this discussion on the cooldown lap and carry the conversation until you get into the pits you can have most of it accomplished by the time the car comes to a stop.

You're right though there's still often times NOT enough time to discuss things at length outside of the car if the student needs more guidance. The good thing about the classroom is it gives them a forum to ask those same questions that we didn't necessarily have time to discuss with them 1:1.

Every time I get in the car I ask what they discussed in class and what isn't clear that I can help with as there's almost always a few minutes sitting on grid or rolling out onto the track for that too.

Our groups around here can be some of the worst offenders when it comes to number of students and extra available time for instructors. Need to roll with it and make the most of what available time we do have.

 

Well it sounds Andy like you and I are two pees in the same pod My debrief starts as we slow down having just passed the checkered flag. I actually try to get my people to really slow down and take advantage of the meaning of "cool down". We talk about and take final practice attempts at corners gone wrong at speed, it allows me to explain in slower motion, why what they did didn't work and how to better execute whatever the activity is.

It's unfortunate that we really don't have the time, I've had students become instructors a year later You can't be late green or early blue with me and be instructing a year later IMO.

There's always been the argument here (and we don't need to start it again) about who makes a better instructor - a DE only guy or ex racer. I still hold, as one, ex racers have WAAAAY more experience and real track issue avoidance than a DE guy. I'm not proud to say it, but we racers have probably all done it- crash, roll, etc..... and most DE guys would never see those issues in such a controlled environment. I teach people how to drive fast......race if you will. I teach race lines and theories. I actually take my volunteer profession somewhat serious and would love to take more time with a talented driver......but I/we can't and I want to drive too for my efforts. So my previous comments about the inherent nature of the DE model still stand. To properly teach thoroughly, entry fees would be much higher, events longer and we'd be getting paid Until then, it's controlled fun with a bit of instruction so people don't kill themselves (usually )

 

Amen Brother. The reality is that DE = "Driving Event". Personally, I don't have any problem with that, but it is what it is.

 

Right And hey, considering entry fees for participants are only $250-$500, I'd say the instruction part is a freebie to the student. We're the idiots for strapping into a strangers car for the sake of cheap personal track time. I might take my volunteer job waaaay to seriously come to think of it May need to re-think my approach...............why has this never hit me before

 

As a novice student and reflecting back on last (my first) year - I can definitely see the value in spending 1 or maybe 2 sessions on the skid pad - then head out onto the track. Some groups (HOD) run the first novice session of the day entirely under yellow flag. I too can not imagine making an instructor spend the day in the passenger seat on a skid pad. I'd lose my lunch too. I gained a tremendous amount of insight from riding in my instructors car with the intercom on. He talked me through his laps as he was doing them. Perhaps first timers should do this before they go out behind the wheel.
As for classroom time - I personally glaze over after about 15 minutes with only talk. With the availability of laptop computers and projectors, I could see some in car and trackside video as a valuable teaching tool. If it was shot at the very track where the event is, even better.
HOD issues a log book with notes from the instructor. I think this is a good idea. I also think it 's a good idea for everyone to have a "driving record", just like on the street. If it were linked to the registration process (Motorsport Reg, for instance) then their record would come up regardless of which club is hosting the event. Repeat offenders would have to either go back a run group, be required an instructor (again), go to detention, or therapy.
-C

 

As a student, I find the download conversation after a run to be very helpful. During a session, so much is going on that it can become a blur in hindsight, so going over everything that I need to work on next time helps me remember to focus on that during the next session.

One thing that can hurt that, however, is being assigned a work rotation within 5 minutes of the end of a session (I've had that happen once) - it leads to the student cutting short his/her learning and often leads to the student being late for the work assignment, so I would encourage DE organizers to try to stay thoughtful about how work rotation schedules and run session schedules mesh together.

 

I've found that having a model and method of teaching is very difficult to follow at best. The students I've instructed have SO many different goals and desires ranging from "I just wanted to see what my car feels like" to "I want to get faster and become a skilled driver". Therefore, I've really had to vary how I instruct and cater it more to their goals and they seem to have a better experience keeping that in mind. If you trying to teach someone how to take a better entry into T1 in order to be a little faster, you might be wasting your time and effort as that student may care less about going faster and just wants to have good safe fun with his/her new car. In fact, you may make them more nervous than necessary. With that said, there are always basics with safety...flags, point by's, distance between cars, track courtesy,proper line, emergency procedures, smoothness, smoothness, smoothness, etc., that can and should be taught my every instructor and in the classroom. Just my two cents in this area.

 

^ Think back to 07 when you were a new student. Your goals were as green as you were. Having a training formula helps guide the student along as they learn. you can keep the fun in full form while teaching what you as an experienced driver and instructor knows is more important than "I just want to (______) with my car. HOW we teach a student is where it is we as instructors play an important role. The information we possess needs to be given in a form that is best understood and retained by the student at hand. Each student learns a bit differently and fine tuning how we teach is the real key to both learning and the student's on track fun factor.
One good thing I take from this thread is that the group I instruct with already does the good stuff noted in this thread without glomming on a bunch of tedious unneeded tasks and regulations.

 

double post for some reason. How to delete?