bobt993

Larry and I have worked on T1 data a bit at the Glen. Vmin data on the cup he drove was over 75mph, GT3 RS on MSPCs between 72 plus. My 933 widebody on R6s ,75 was consistent. A Penske engineer from our region correlated data with me that showed 78mph on Michelins. I worked with a Cayman S on R6s this past WG event and he managed just over 70mph and a 2:10 lap so your correct Matt on the overall time delta. The technique was taught to me and Larry by Chris Cervelli who ran an 993 RSR very competively at the Glen for years. Stairstep Lat Gs are explained extensively in by Buddy Fey in "Data Power" Fey. You can take my comments as a grain of salt.

Cheyenne

Is this not the largest transition we make as drivers? From easing into the corner hoping not to overdo it, to making most corners a sort of aborted spin, where we set rotation speed (slow, as spins go, at around 20-40 degrees per second) as we enter the corner, and the rotation dissipates naturally as the steering is unwound. A gentle, self correcting slide that creates the "slither" that a well done corner involves.

If this is the case, and someone who knows please tell me if I'm wrong, why then, do we not teach this specific skill almost first? Is lapping a track well about anything more than being able to crisply rotate into the corners? Does not both a good entry and exit require correct rotation as it's foundation?

Why does teaching people to drive a track not start as skidpad work to learn basic car control, then a second level of skidpad work to learn to produce small rotations that are always biased towards "not enough" rather than "Catch it quick if you overdo it!"

I have to wonder if this type of tiered, specific skill stacking could take someone from track newbie, to confident, safe, and decently fast, in a more direct line than the usual tiptoeing around the track hoping to not overdo it, while trying to add aggression at the same time, all the while not necessarily clear on what they're really looking for...a recipe for overdoing it.

Matt Romanowski

I think you're right on with these comments. The challenge of teaching rotation is that it's one of the harder skills to learn, especially on entry. To learn that first is sort of like trying to understand calculus without knowing algebra.

In talking to one of the Old Lead Instructors at Skip Barber, he said "It only takes three things to go fast. First is to learn the line. Second is exit speed. Third is entry speed. I can teach a monkey the first two. The last one is what we all have to work on."

Cheyenne

I think part of what makes a thing like this hard to teach or learn is that it's hard to tell someone what they are looking for, and if you can't be specific, it leaves people searching, which is a sketchy place to be if you're cornering at any real speed!

What I focus on when I'm cornering, is that I am lifting the rear end of the car up, and moving it over, then setting it back down. Because this is how it feels to me when I do it, so now I create that feeling to do it. But I had to know what I was looking for before I could even describe it that way.

Sometimes it helps to visualize the car holding still, and the road moving under the car, to help visualize, but everything about driving comes down to picking up, setting down, or pushing down one end or side of the car or another. (And of course applying thrust forwards or backwards)

So obviously, a person has to know first how to shift load around to be able to pick up the rear by pushing down the front with the brakes, or lift throttle. The ability to judge turning ability change due to the front to rear load shift and back and a feel for setting the rear end back down gently.

These skill are intertwined with basic car control skills anyways, and compliment learning to control over or understeer. They can also be learned at relatively low speeds, but will also impress upon people how easy it is to overcontrol a car.

winders

Cheyenne,

All of this done just on the street..................wow.

Scott

Cheyenne

Bro, honestly, I'm sorry you didn't have the patience and foresight to take things slow and learn a different way. And honestly, I love debating the point, because I think it speaks to the way we all learn to drive, the way we all drive on the street (meaning normal driving), and how we deal with traffic safety in the real world.

But this thread specifically is not for pissing matches, so can we take it elsewhere? If you start a thread on "Keeping it sane on the street in spite of your mad skillz" I'll happily participate in a respectful way, and defend my thoughts on the subject. In here, let's keep it to technical discussion.

BTW...are you on BARF?

winders

Bro? Seriously?

The street is not the place to learn high performance driving. I think autocrossing is the place to start followed by DE events, Time Trials, and maybe even wheel to wheel racing.

I don't see how you can have the proper perspective with zero experience on the track and a disdain for more appropriate settings such as autocrosses.

I've seen plenty of squids that think they are fast and think they know what they are doing because they are "quick" on the street. The track is a whole different world.....

Scott

Cheyenne

I think it's weird to want to do those things without knowing how to control a car first. There is a lot you can learn that will make you a better driver on the street. If you want to take that further, and use those skills to drive especially fast, then those things you mentioned make perfect sense.

The track is a microcosm of reality. A place for extremes, both of outright speed and also technique. Autocrosses would never have given me the time needed, and the focus there is still speed, not just pure control. There is a reason that traditional martial arts are practiced in slow motion. The same dynamics apply to driving. Mental imagery is a powerful tool.

My perspective is based on practical experience that works regardless of if the road I'm traversing is a track, public road, or a bit of both, like the Nurburgring, or Highway 17. (<-- That's just to get his BP up, I don't condone playing on 17). You don't have to go fast to learn this.


Physics works the same on the track and the street. What does quick on the street even mean? Nobody hands out trophies at the end of any of the roads I ride or drive. The trophy is being able to come again tomorrow. What some seem to fail to see is that this is just as true on the track. Lots of safety gear and helpful personnel help, but don't save everyone. On top of that, I see a lot of people in video driving over their heads on the track. They think it's the way to learn. It's not. It's just a thrill. Or even worse, ignorance that there is another way.

Real control is not about thrills, it's about not driving over your head, and knowing exactly where that line is, and just how close you can come without EVER going over.

Racing is about going over that line sometimes in the heat of competition. In racing, they hand out trophies, and big checks. So it's a different thing.

I haven't really driven much faster than the average joe on the street for a long time, except a couple times chasing bikes in the hills. What I do, is drive with a lot less effort.


Also, you again attacked me on my style, but have nothing of substance to say about the technical things I've written about.

hf1

Cheyenne, since you haven't ever been on a track you probably don't know what we're talking about. If you do know, then you're suicidal.

Gary R.

I have to practice that " lifting the rear end of the car up, and moving it over, then setting it back down" thing on my way to work tomorrow... how high do I lift it?

Cheyenne

Enough to increase your rate of rotation by 10-15 degrees per second. Start there, increase as needed once it feels good.

It's just looking at trail braking / lift throttle steering as an effect, rather than a procedure. Once you can trailbrake well, without upsetting the car, now use it to always have as little understeer as you want.

I hate understeer, really, a lot. I also really hate the unstable and unwise crossed up power on understeering off of corners that so many people do. Looks ugly, feels ugly, feels even uglier when it turns into snap oversteer.

Matt Romanowski

Please don't think I'm trying to be a jerk - I'm really not. Looking at what you said and the graphs, were you looking at the Long G for turn 1, not Lat G? I don't see a step in Lat G. Just curious if you're seeing something I'm not.

In regards to Data Power, I see on page 7-7/8 where he talks about exit plateaus and rising Lat G on exit. By stair stepping, are you talking about the exit plateau?

Bob Rouleau

Winders and Cheyenne, (in no order) I'd appreciate your taking your debate off this thread which is designed for a different purpose altogether.

Thanks,

Veloce Raptor

+1. Thank you, Bob.

RickBetterley

Some of you may know that I bought the prototype of I/O Racing's Chatterbox to Camera interface. I had a chance to finally test it and make a short video and can't say enough good things about it. I can't imagine anyone that has an in-car coach not using this to capture the audio on their camera. It was plug 'n play, audio setting perfect right out of the box, and inexpensive. Although I don't have any benefit in promoting the product, it seems like something that would greatly benefit clients, and probably coaches as well.
I do miss the engine sounds but it is probably better to have clear dialogue.
Here's the link (of a lousy lap on a wet track, but that's not the point); scroll down to get to the video: http://www.ioportracing.com/Merchant...gory_Code=CEI1