ASK THE COACH
#1396
Larry and I have worked on T1 data a bit at the Glen. Vmin data on the cup he drove was over 75mph, GT3 RS on MSPCs between 72 plus. My 933 widebody on R6s ,75 was consistent. A Penske engineer from our region correlated data with me that showed 78mph on Michelins. I worked with a Cayman S on R6s this past WG event and he managed just over 70mph and a 2:10 lap so your correct Matt on the overall time delta. The technique was taught to me and Larry by Chris Cervelli who ran an 993 RSR very competively at the Glen for years. Stairstep Lat Gs are explained extensively in by Buddy Fey in "Data Power" Fey. You can take my comments as a grain of salt.
#1397
Overall, I think the big thing is you need to just carry a little more speed into the corners. When you get to the point in your braking where you think "just a little more," that is the time to take your foot off the brake. The first time feels like an "O-S#@$" moment, but then it works and becomes the new normal.
If this is the case, and someone who knows please tell me if I'm wrong, why then, do we not teach this specific skill almost first? Is lapping a track well about anything more than being able to crisply rotate into the corners? Does not both a good entry and exit require correct rotation as it's foundation?
Why does teaching people to drive a track not start as skidpad work to learn basic car control, then a second level of skidpad work to learn to produce small rotations that are always biased towards "not enough" rather than "Catch it quick if you overdo it!"
I have to wonder if this type of tiered, specific skill stacking could take someone from track newbie, to confident, safe, and decently fast, in a more direct line than the usual tiptoeing around the track hoping to not overdo it, while trying to add aggression at the same time, all the while not necessarily clear on what they're really looking for...a recipe for overdoing it.
#1398
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Is this not the largest transition we make as drivers? From easing into the corner hoping not to overdo it, to making most corners a sort of aborted spin, where we set rotation speed (slow, as spins go, at around 20-40 degrees per second) as we enter the corner, and the rotation dissipates naturally as the steering is unwound. A gentle, self correcting slide that creates the "slither" that a well done corner involves.
If this is the case, and someone who knows please tell me if I'm wrong, why then, do we not teach this specific skill almost first? Is lapping a track well about anything more than being able to crisply rotate into the corners? Does not both a good entry and exit require correct rotation as it's foundation?
Why does teaching people to drive a track not start as skidpad work to learn basic car control, then a second level of skidpad work to learn to produce small rotations that are always biased towards "not enough" rather than "Catch it quick if you overdo it!"
I have to wonder if this type of tiered, specific skill stacking could take someone from track newbie, to confident, safe, and decently fast, in a more direct line than the usual tiptoeing around the track hoping to not overdo it, while trying to add aggression at the same time, all the while not necessarily clear on what they're really looking for...a recipe for overdoing it.
If this is the case, and someone who knows please tell me if I'm wrong, why then, do we not teach this specific skill almost first? Is lapping a track well about anything more than being able to crisply rotate into the corners? Does not both a good entry and exit require correct rotation as it's foundation?
Why does teaching people to drive a track not start as skidpad work to learn basic car control, then a second level of skidpad work to learn to produce small rotations that are always biased towards "not enough" rather than "Catch it quick if you overdo it!"
I have to wonder if this type of tiered, specific skill stacking could take someone from track newbie, to confident, safe, and decently fast, in a more direct line than the usual tiptoeing around the track hoping to not overdo it, while trying to add aggression at the same time, all the while not necessarily clear on what they're really looking for...a recipe for overdoing it.
In talking to one of the Old Lead Instructors at Skip Barber, he said "It only takes three things to go fast. First is to learn the line. Second is exit speed. Third is entry speed. I can teach a monkey the first two. The last one is what we all have to work on."
#1399
What I focus on when I'm cornering, is that I am lifting the rear end of the car up, and moving it over, then setting it back down. Because this is how it feels to me when I do it, so now I create that feeling to do it. But I had to know what I was looking for before I could even describe it that way.
Sometimes it helps to visualize the car holding still, and the road moving under the car, to help visualize, but everything about driving comes down to picking up, setting down, or pushing down one end or side of the car or another. (And of course applying thrust forwards or backwards)
So obviously, a person has to know first how to shift load around to be able to pick up the rear by pushing down the front with the brakes, or lift throttle. The ability to judge turning ability change due to the front to rear load shift and back and a feel for setting the rear end back down gently.
These skill are intertwined with basic car control skills anyways, and compliment learning to control over or understeer. They can also be learned at relatively low speeds, but will also impress upon people how easy it is to overcontrol a car.
#1400
I think part of what makes a thing like this hard to teach or learn is that it's hard to tell someone what they are looking for, and if you can't be specific, it leaves people searching, which is a sketchy place to be if you're cornering at any real speed!
What I focus on when I'm cornering, is that I am lifting the rear end of the car up, and moving it over, then setting it back down. Because this is how it feels to me when I do it, so now I create that feeling to do it. But I had to know what I was looking for before I could even describe it that way.
Sometimes it helps to visualize the car holding still, and the road moving under the car, to help visualize, but everything about driving comes down to picking up, setting down, or pushing down one end or side of the car or another. (And of course applying thrust forwards or backwards)
So obviously, a person has to know first how to shift load around to be able to pick up the rear by pushing down the front with the brakes, or lift throttle. The ability to judge turning ability change due to the front to rear load shift and back and a feel for setting the rear end back down gently.
These skill are intertwined with basic car control skills anyways, and compliment learning to control over or understeer. They can also be learned at relatively low speeds, but will also impress upon people how easy it is to overcontrol a car.
What I focus on when I'm cornering, is that I am lifting the rear end of the car up, and moving it over, then setting it back down. Because this is how it feels to me when I do it, so now I create that feeling to do it. But I had to know what I was looking for before I could even describe it that way.
Sometimes it helps to visualize the car holding still, and the road moving under the car, to help visualize, but everything about driving comes down to picking up, setting down, or pushing down one end or side of the car or another. (And of course applying thrust forwards or backwards)
So obviously, a person has to know first how to shift load around to be able to pick up the rear by pushing down the front with the brakes, or lift throttle. The ability to judge turning ability change due to the front to rear load shift and back and a feel for setting the rear end back down gently.
These skill are intertwined with basic car control skills anyways, and compliment learning to control over or understeer. They can also be learned at relatively low speeds, but will also impress upon people how easy it is to overcontrol a car.
All of this done just on the street..................wow.
Scott
#1401
But this thread specifically is not for pissing matches, so can we take it elsewhere? If you start a thread on "Keeping it sane on the street in spite of your mad skillz" I'll happily participate in a respectful way, and defend my thoughts on the subject. In here, let's keep it to technical discussion.
BTW...are you on BARF?
#1402
Bro, honestly, I'm sorry you didn't have the patience and foresight to take things slow and learn a different way. And honestly, I love debating the point, because I think it speaks to the way we all learn to drive, the way we all drive on the street (meaning normal driving), and how we deal with traffic safety in the real world.
But this thread specifically is not for pissing matches, so can we take it elsewhere? If you start a thread on "Keeping it sane on the street in spite of your mad skillz" I'll happily participate in a respectful way, and defend my thoughts on the subject. In here, let's keep it to technical discussion.
BTW...are you on BARF?
But this thread specifically is not for pissing matches, so can we take it elsewhere? If you start a thread on "Keeping it sane on the street in spite of your mad skillz" I'll happily participate in a respectful way, and defend my thoughts on the subject. In here, let's keep it to technical discussion.
BTW...are you on BARF?
The street is not the place to learn high performance driving. I think autocrossing is the place to start followed by DE events, Time Trials, and maybe even wheel to wheel racing.
I don't see how you can have the proper perspective with zero experience on the track and a disdain for more appropriate settings such as autocrosses.
I've seen plenty of squids that think they are fast and think they know what they are doing because they are "quick" on the street. The track is a whole different world.....
Scott
#1403
My perspective is based on practical experience that works regardless of if the road I'm traversing is a track, public road, or a bit of both, like the Nurburgring, or Highway 17. (<-- That's just to get his BP up, I don't condone playing on 17). You don't have to go fast to learn this.
Real control is not about thrills, it's about not driving over your head, and knowing exactly where that line is, and just how close you can come without EVER going over.
Racing is about going over that line sometimes in the heat of competition. In racing, they hand out trophies, and big checks. So it's a different thing.
I haven't really driven much faster than the average joe on the street for a long time, except a couple times chasing bikes in the hills. What I do, is drive with a lot less effort.
Also, you again attacked me on my style, but have nothing of substance to say about the technical things I've written about.
Last edited by Cheyenne; 06-24-2013 at 10:03 PM.
#1406
It's just looking at trail braking / lift throttle steering as an effect, rather than a procedure. Once you can trailbrake well, without upsetting the car, now use it to always have as little understeer as you want.
I hate understeer, really, a lot. I also really hate the unstable and unwise crossed up power on understeering off of corners that so many people do. Looks ugly, feels ugly, feels even uglier when it turns into snap oversteer.
Last edited by Cheyenne; 06-25-2013 at 12:01 AM.
#1407
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Looking at your Vmins/lat Gs since Peter suggested applying the speed trace:
T1 lat Gs shows a good amount of understeer ( LAT G stairstep ) on exit. Both laps show the same condition so this is part driver inputs and setup. T1 is down hill and allows gentle trailing to rolling transition on turn entry. You can populate lat G early with slight oversteer here and maintain a much higher Vmin (on your tires up to 70mph). This moves throttle slightly forward, but your way ahead of your current Vmin so your speed to T2 will still be higher. You can see you did this better in T6 (laces), but still have the stairstep. ( are you settling into your turn in wheel position or are sawing a bit ?). WG has some very sustained lat G corners. I would work on populating the midcorner speed (lat G) as Adam points out (missing in the Gplot). A good instructor /coach can help you explore this by riding with you and working on a bit more entry speed. You should notice the valleys on your speed trace to start going away. Just getting the mid corner improved is worth a bunch of time. When I was there in May the racer picked up over 3 secs over two days focusing on mid corner and small bit of car setup.
T1 lat Gs shows a good amount of understeer ( LAT G stairstep ) on exit. Both laps show the same condition so this is part driver inputs and setup. T1 is down hill and allows gentle trailing to rolling transition on turn entry. You can populate lat G early with slight oversteer here and maintain a much higher Vmin (on your tires up to 70mph). This moves throttle slightly forward, but your way ahead of your current Vmin so your speed to T2 will still be higher. You can see you did this better in T6 (laces), but still have the stairstep. ( are you settling into your turn in wheel position or are sawing a bit ?). WG has some very sustained lat G corners. I would work on populating the midcorner speed (lat G) as Adam points out (missing in the Gplot). A good instructor /coach can help you explore this by riding with you and working on a bit more entry speed. You should notice the valleys on your speed trace to start going away. Just getting the mid corner improved is worth a bunch of time. When I was there in May the racer picked up over 3 secs over two days focusing on mid corner and small bit of car setup.
Larry and I have worked on T1 data a bit at the Glen. Vmin data on the cup he drove was over 75mph, GT3 RS on MSPCs between 72 plus. My 933 widebody on R6s ,75 was consistent. A Penske engineer from our region correlated data with me that showed 78mph on Michelins. I worked with a Cayman S on R6s this past WG event and he managed just over 70mph and a 2:10 lap so your correct Matt on the overall time delta. The technique was taught to me and Larry by Chris Cervelli who ran an 993 RSR very competively at the Glen for years. Stairstep Lat Gs are explained extensively in by Buddy Fey in "Data Power" Fey. You can take my comments as a grain of salt.
In regards to Data Power, I see on page 7-7/8 where he talks about exit plateaus and rising Lat G on exit. By stair stepping, are you talking about the exit plateau?
#1410
Some of you may know that I bought the prototype of I/O Racing's Chatterbox to Camera interface. I had a chance to finally test it and make a short video and can't say enough good things about it. I can't imagine anyone that has an in-car coach not using this to capture the audio on their camera. It was plug 'n play, audio setting perfect right out of the box, and inexpensive. Although I don't have any benefit in promoting the product, it seems like something that would greatly benefit clients, and probably coaches as well.
I do miss the engine sounds but it is probably better to have clear dialogue.
Here's the link (of a lousy lap on a wet track, but that's not the point); scroll down to get to the video: http://www.ioportracing.com/Merchant...gory_Code=CEI1
I do miss the engine sounds but it is probably better to have clear dialogue.
Here's the link (of a lousy lap on a wet track, but that's not the point); scroll down to get to the video: http://www.ioportracing.com/Merchant...gory_Code=CEI1