KaiB

Mike, I don't believe there is a "norm" with PCA at all. There is certainly no continuity between most regions, certainly no communication between regions as far as student progress is concerned (a beige student in one region may be khaki in another and then be allowed to enter a tan group on a strange track in another) and programs are as varied as the abilities of the instructors themselves.

These are observations I've made this year, my first and only year, and I present them openly and without complaint: It is what it is.

KB

bobt993

Sean is not talking about DE drivers being competent on the track. They have learned via a process and have progressed to the limit of a driving technique where getting faster requires backing up two or three steps and re-learning the process. I know our region is good about getting in the car of solo drivers and checking their skill level, but it is not always evaluated properly. I know a certain driver moving to black a couple of years ago. I got in his car and basically told him to slow down a bit when the next instructor rides with him because his already super fast to the point I had little or nothing to offer. I was more worried that a different instructor would be terrified of a ride with a really talented driver and not understand his car control. That same driver was a national champ this year.

mglobe

I have no doubt that you are right about the variability in PCA programs.

Kai, you really should make the tow down to TWS some time. It's a great track. Completely different from Hallett, but every bit as much fun. We love having folks from other regions joining us.

KaiB

You know I'll be down as soon as the frost clears in the spring!!!

gvtesse

sorry if this is the wrong place for this question. But, I am starting to research/think about hiring a coach next year. Any recommendations in southern california? I would prefer someone local to help keep travel costs down.

Veloce Raptor

This is the right place to ask! Try James Sofronas...

MattUF

Wow, awesome thread. Took me a couple of days to read but well worth it! Thanks to everyone who contributed.

Veloce Raptor

A few days ago, a couple friends and I got to talking about testing one of their redone, improved race cars. Our soonest opportunity to test it out after the rebuild, and begin to set it up for racing, would be a DE at which the 3 of us are instructing. I had suggested we have a somewhhat organized methodology for who would drive the car which session on each day, so that our feedback would be additive, and any changes we agreed to make to the car would be in sync with our driving. One guy thought this would be a great idea. The other didn't think we could get a lot of value in a DE due to traffic. Yeah, each of us might get one or 2 flyer laps, but the momentum killing DE traffic would make any more than that impossible, and we would not really get full usable data.

I had to agree with him, based on experience. The video below shows what happens when you try to test the (broken) suspension of a true momentum car in rather slow DE traffic. This is from Road Atlanta, in Mark Dreyer's Boxster when I was coaching him last Saturday. He asked me to drive for a few laps to get a sense for what the suspension was or was not doing, figure our gear selection, etc. You can plainly see the results of losing that precious momentum, and its effect on any usable data.

So my point is that any data from DE's, whether you race or just enjoy doing laps, is probably not a full representation of the car's behavior and/or your full potential in its driver's seat.

Polarporsche

The traffic was much better on Sunday, here is a clip from Sunday afternoon Blue group. I was in the 2011 Black Spyder from Canada.

Veloce Raptor

Wow, it sure was! Nice. I remember you guys, I am friends with Peter and I think I met a bunch of you on Saturday.

Nick Wong

Two fundamental problems I see-

1. Most DE events assume higher HP cars are not momentum cars. Not true, ALL cars are momentum cars.

2. Most DE events, because they don't treat traffic as a reality, train drivers to act like idiots on the track, allowing slower drivers to stack faster ones behind them without penalty. The good drivers figure it out quick- the less aware ones ruin it for everyone and are oblivious to their actions (or lack thereof).

The first problem is easily solvable, it just needs a change in attitude. The second one, I'm not too sure about, since every DE I've ever been to always had at least one person who forgot how to use their finger to point by or developed a blind spot wherever their mirrors happened to be.

The reason why drivers, who quickly go into club racing or wheel/wheel racing, develop better cornering skills is because they realize early on that speed comes from several things- setting up the car to minimize drag, gaining mph throughout the entire turn, and timing their passes on the track to impact their lap time the least. The first item is experience that comes after developing the skill to drive through the corners properly, and the third one is a situational awareness skill that all drivers should have (but as stated before, some don't).

ervtx

But neither of these need to be fundamental problems, and a student doesn't need to go into club racing to develop better cornering skills. I have found both of these topics to be covered extremely well and consistently in both general group and 1:1 coaching at every DE that I attend. I don't think that my experience is unique, so perhaps it's another one of those region-specific variables.

Traffic is a fact of life in both DE's and racing. Sure, a DE driver has more opportunities to practice patience and understanding when it gets in the way of learning, but it doesn't preclude learning, especially if you time your passes just as you would if racing. In the advanced run group, I never come across a slower car being driven by someone with a blind spot or lack of situational awareness. More common is the fellow GT3 driver who legitimately thinks they can eek out just one more turn before having to give way. Nuisance? For one or two turns, perhaps. Inhibitor to learning cornering skills? Nah.

fleadh

Here's a couple snapshots of data from a few weeks ago at Thunderhill when I was testing my new (to me) 2011 Cup w/ my buddy/coach. He's the red line, I'm the green line. When I was in the car we were trying to dial out some wicked oversteer in the mid to exit of the corners. We went to far in one direction and had caused some understeer by the time my buddy got in the car. The steering/throttle data lines are very interesting when comparing an oversteering versus understeering car. Thought some of you might find it useful.. I know I did. :-)

T1 -- high speed 90 degree left. Braking zone starts @ 150mph. You can see I over slow because I'm afraid of getting to the apex pointed backwards. And you can see my buddy fight the understeer by continually putting in steering input until the car rotates on exit and he opens up the steering.


T6 -- one of the most important corners IMO because it leads onto a rather straight section of track into a corner that most people overslow for and into a great passing zone (T9). In this corner we typically fight a little understeer on a well setup car, but my oversteer setup helps me get the car rotated at the apex and I'm able to say "f*ck it" and go flat really early. I overslow on entry a little bit, but that's probably just cause the red line is someone who makes their living driving cars and I'm just a scrub. :-)


T9 -- another important turn because most people overslow for it which allows you to either get them on the inside or get an easy run on them into T10. I overslow on entry again and have to fight the car to keep it stable from basically turn in until the exit of the corner. For those not familiar with the track, it's a left handed turn into a hill and then you crest the hill on exit. A little tricky and blind, but you can carry more speed than you'd think.


-mike

Veloce Raptor

Great stuff, Mike, thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AudiOn19s

Haha...Tommy Byrne said something very similar in our advanced instructor training class last year when someone asked him if he'd suggest a different line for a monemtum car. I'm pretty sure his version had the "F" word in it though.