Notices
Racing & Drivers Education Forum
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

ASK THE COACH

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 04-04-2014, 12:23 PM
  #1591  
ProCoach
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
 
ProCoach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Durham, NC and Virginia International Raceway
Posts: 19,054
Received 3,193 Likes on 1,842 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by naroescape
how can you see from the data that I actually COULD brake later/earlier, turn in different, accelerate more, etc.

or..maybe the car can do SOOO much more than what you can see on the charts.

But I have nothing to compare to....
Actually, the CAR can ALWAYS do SOOO much more than what you can see on the charts! <big grin>

Bob, much of what I teach in webinars and seminars on WHAT TO DO with the data covers this.

1) There is NO car that cannot be driven faster by someone else... The only difference is the knowledge, planning, confidence, comfort and execution of the driver behind the wheel.

2) The fact is that there is data that "looks right" (visually and that hits performance benchmarks), making it all the more clear where unleveraged opportunities exist.

THEN, you have to form a very defined, small-in-scale, highly targeted exercise to fix ONE area or deficit.

A typical data-driven methodology would be to attack throttle and brake executions first (long g, tps and bps timing and amplitude), then generate mid corner numbers (lat g and comb g), then target transitions out (latg to tps using comb g), then LASTLY, transitions in (lat g to long g using comb g, or friction circle).

No one drives the perfect lap, but they can usually do one thing well, one place in the session... Measure it, FIND it and repeat it, transfer it to raise your whole performance level!

3) This is math. Look at Segers and Fey's books (as well as Krumm's new one) and they will give BENCHMARKS that you MUST know to begin TARGETED improvement. Then, measure again.

For example, on DOT-R tires, you should be able to generate between 90-95% of total sustained lateral grip possible in braking. On slicks, a little more.

With steering and throttle sensors, we can put measures to what have been subjective analysis. "Steering speed," "Brake aggression," a million different things that we KNOW what they SHOULD be.

There is a particular minimum time it should take to execute a shift. Measure the time and distance forward thrust is negated during that shift to mine for opportunities.

This is too massive a question to answer here (because I can think of more than a THOUSAND ways to measure YOUR performance against a KNOWN ideal AND against captured moments of your particularly good execution), but there will be tidbits that will resonate with you when more people reply.

I'm going to the beach... Introduce me to your wife sometime...
__________________
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway























Last edited by ProCoach; 04-04-2014 at 01:37 PM.
Old 04-04-2014, 05:02 PM
  #1592  
Veloce Raptor
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
 
Veloce Raptor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Guess...
Posts: 41,779
Received 1,590 Likes on 830 Posts
Default

Bob, I will add that watching video and looking at data tells me a lot about the car's performance envelope, as well as that of a driver. Too much to get into here, as I am traveling at the moment, but suffice it to say that in addition to what Peter says above, I will also look for telltale signs of uunderdriving (and overdriving) in brake zones, which are often visible in the data if you know what to look for. I will also look at video for missing apexes by overcharging corner entry, and excess oversteer at corner exit by being too aggressive. And there are a lot of other clues a trained eye can see.
Old 04-05-2014, 10:21 AM
  #1593  
ProCoach
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
 
ProCoach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Durham, NC and Virginia International Raceway
Posts: 19,054
Received 3,193 Likes on 1,842 Posts
Default

Bob, et al, it all boils down to WHEN people push to try to improve, they inevitably do it in the WRONG place. With data (and video, of course, as VR points out), you can measure WHERE you are doing WHAT and then make an intelligent decision on what to do NEXT.

Sorry for the caps, I get really excited about this stuff!

The key is that the best pro drivers execute fundamental skills, BEST. The data of the best drivers looks remarkably similar. There is no "silver bullet" in this game.

Most club drivers don't do any one thing particularly well, so simple refocusing on a few things at a time, in a few places on track, can often yield big benefits. Even excellent club-level drivers (and pros) can benefit from another eye, another perspective, particularly aided by the data and "intelligent" (data overlaid onto) video.

Be glad to talk in detail off list, especially how you can mine your own data for clues to improve. Without any more risk...
Old 04-05-2014, 11:34 AM
  #1594  
Matt Romanowski
Rennlist Hoonigan
which cost no drachmas
Lifetime Rennlist
Member


Rennlist
Site Sponsor
 
Matt Romanowski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Manchester, NH
Posts: 12,617
Received 937 Likes on 567 Posts
Default

I think it's also important to point out that there is no one specific method that works to make everyone improve. You have to see their data and video, then you can make a decision on what areas will make the biggest improvement, then work from there.

Just like Peter said, there are certain shapes of the graphs that are more optimal than others. You can look for those shapes and then pick the spots to work on. I'm amazed that Buddy Fey's book is still so good even after technology has changed so much. Jorge Seger's book revision is excellent too.

In the next couple of weeks I'll have something for data folks that will be really exciting. I can't announce it yet as I'm still finishing up the details. It will be something to not be missed.
Old 04-05-2014, 11:51 AM
  #1595  
tahoelife
Racer
 
tahoelife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Lake Tahoe
Posts: 262
Received 7 Likes on 7 Posts
Default Data and mental image

I have over this past year been using data to learn more and have attended Peter's webinars along with reading more and more. One area I had learned the value of from previous sports career is mental imagery Ross B talks about this as well. Learning to look at your data vs what good data should look like then imagining in detail how to "draw" the squiggly lines you want to see. It takes a very committed process and the willingness to most likely be slower for a bit while learning. Imagine what Tiger Woods went through when his coach asked him to change his swing to be better in the long run. For my self this is challenging as I only get two days at track every 7weeks from March-October so when there I find myself just chasing my buddies vs a set plan of practice. Last week we had very wet conditions that reduced everyone's speed so it was great for just practicing specific tasks thanks to all for their contributions here I continue to learn more and more
Old 04-05-2014, 03:25 PM
  #1596  
ProCoach
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
 
ProCoach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Durham, NC and Virginia International Raceway
Posts: 19,054
Received 3,193 Likes on 1,842 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Matt Romanowski
I think it's also important to point out that there is no one specific method that works to make everyone improve. You have to see their data and video, then you can make a decision on what areas will make the biggest improvement, then work from there.
And that's why there is no single answer (or even a few) that fits for everyone...

Job security.
Old 04-06-2014, 01:33 PM
  #1597  
NaroEscape
Basic Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor

 
NaroEscape's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 3,813
Received 675 Likes on 340 Posts
Default

Thanks guys!

Now, if I can ever get our car back together, I cans start accumulating some data and start learning something!
__________________
Bob Saville

Getting You On Track!
www.naroescapemotorsports.com
704-395-2975
  • Data Analysis & Coaching
  • Drivers Gear
  • Crew Gear
  • Car Gear

'07 SPC
'71 914/6 Huey
'04 GT3

Old 04-06-2014, 07:02 PM
  #1598  
T&T Racing
Drifting
 
T&T Racing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: New York & Indiana
Posts: 2,883
Received 345 Likes on 274 Posts
Default

Peter,

Cannot find the book title for analyzing race data authored by "as well as Krumm's new one"

Thanks,
Tom
Old 04-06-2014, 07:09 PM
  #1599  
ProCoach
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
 
ProCoach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Durham, NC and Virginia International Raceway
Posts: 19,054
Received 3,193 Likes on 1,842 Posts
Default

Sorry, Tom!

"Driving on the Edge: The Art and Science of Race Driving"- Michael Krumm
Old 04-06-2014, 11:17 PM
  #1600  
Matt Romanowski
Rennlist Hoonigan
which cost no drachmas
Lifetime Rennlist
Member


Rennlist
Site Sponsor
 
Matt Romanowski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Manchester, NH
Posts: 12,617
Received 937 Likes on 567 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by ProCoach
Sorry, Tom!

"Driving on the Edge: The Art and Science of Race Driving"- Michael Krumm
This is a really solid book. It has a good mix of the basics and advanced material, along with some insight that only comes from a top level driver. The book is also beautifully printed and bound.
Old 04-07-2014, 10:05 AM
  #1601  
KJM9
Intermediate
 
KJM9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: West of the Gateway Arch
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Matt Romanowski
This is a really solid book. It has a good mix of the basics and advanced material, along with some insight that only comes from a top level driver. The book is also beautifully printed and bound.
+1!
Old 04-07-2014, 12:05 PM
  #1602  
dan212
Rennlist Member
 
dan212's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,649
Received 129 Likes on 90 Posts
Default

+100 for this book. I have it and found it really illuminating and useful.

Also Ross Bentley's most recent book:
Ultimate Speed Secrets Ultimate Speed Secrets

Originally Posted by ProCoach
Sorry, Tom!

"Driving on the Edge: The Art and Science of Race Driving"- Michael Krumm
Old 04-08-2014, 05:30 PM
  #1603  
Charles A. Toupin
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
Charles A. Toupin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,193
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Currently reading Ultimate Speed Secrets, practicing on iRacing, training hard and looking forward to WGI!!! If everything goes fine here at the office, VR will once again coach me!

c.
Old 04-08-2014, 05:41 PM
  #1604  
Veloce Raptor
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
 
Veloce Raptor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Guess...
Posts: 41,779
Received 1,590 Likes on 830 Posts
Default

Old 04-08-2014, 06:29 PM
  #1605  
Charles A. Toupin
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
Charles A. Toupin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,193
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Last year we gained 4 seconds. We were 0.7 seconds off pole and fastest race lap time.

This year, we have to gain 2 to 2.5 seconds. 2:16:00 would be great. I know I can do it, I know how to do it. Just need some help to get there.

Ross Bentley says that it's a mental game. This is where I need to work harder... My mind is playing tricks on me.

Mental laps, mental laps, mental laps...

c.


Quick Reply: ASK THE COACH



All times are GMT -3. The time now is 01:19 PM.