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I attended the Pirelli Challenge this weekend and camped out at the exit of T-12. I noticed a couple of things. The guys that were going as wide as my line were some of the faster cars out there, but as you go wider there is a small dip in the track. You could see the suspension load and unload. (It was right after that spot that I would make my 2-3 upshift). Also, while some of the drivers did shift mid-corner; they had a dual-clutch/pdk setup... the shifts were so fast that it didn't allow for weight transfer to unsettle the rear end (unlike my nostalgic, slower shifting 6-speed manual gearbox).
It was kind of fun being a tourist at my home track. I bought a hat, a book and mingled with some old friends. My next track date is Aug 2nd. I'll really work on getting this right. Here's a few P-car pics:
Caught this a little late, but if you want to see the correct line watch the second lap that's edited from my Sunday race at Rose Cup. I am directly behind Todd Harris- SCCA national champion and owner/instructor of Pro Drive- he has more laps here than anyone and many wins at PIR. I loose a little time on the exit because I have break-in oil in my new motor that puts me down a little on torque. I know our gearing is different, but you can also get an idea from the onboard telemetry of braking and throttle points. I will have to say that there are two approaches to T10 and T11, Todd uses the classic school line which compromises entry to 10 to set up 11 and 12. I (and National champion John Black- current lap record holder) max out T10 to T11 and then lightly brake into T11- slightly different approaches that have the same net effect in the end. I would say that the classic school approach is harder to do right than the 'hustle' approach that John and I use- the school approach requires more finesse. Anyways, here's the video (you can find more in my blog post also, but this is definitely your best reference while I'm following the eventual winners of the race).
First time I post a question in this thread. Interested in you view on how I overcome a very specific issue. I typically have for every corner on a track a plan B, I memorize the run off areas, know whether they are paved or gravel pit, gras etc. For those corners without enough room to develop an emergency plan, I struggle to be quick, and I loose speed by a quite considerable margin.
Good example is Spa, corner T9, rather slow lefthander, hanging to the outside, low grip. You can use the curb, after the curb comes astro turf and then a concrete wall. I am massively slower than my pro coach and we discussed the issue, it’s not the line but it’s in my head.
For the videos, fast forward to 1.14, that will get you to the short straight between Bruxelles and T9. My fastest continuous lap, I’m really slow in T9 (almost 15km/h slower, time slip to pro c. 0.4)
Much better lap (gained 0.9 seconds in sector 1 and 2 and then hit traffic in 3) but still loosing time (c. 0.3 seconds, 9 km/h slower) in a rather simple corner.
And here you go with the RaceNavigator analysis, green is the first lap above, blue the better one and then orange the pro driving:
My coach suggested that I build confidence over time, which sound perfectly fine. Not really sure I am looking for shortcuts, but how do others deal with situations in which you don’t have a plan B for a corner and you know that mistakes will come costly...?
Mental blocks are very difficult to overcome.
for mid corner speed iimprovement one of my favorite tools is either a cool down or just a slow lap.
On a cool down lap with no one around
approach the corner at the VMin you hope to achieve...or close to......turn in with full concentration on the corner and exit
when you take away the mental strain of braking from the straightaway, making sure you get to the correct speed etc, you can adjust your feeling for whats possible.
so you know your car is capable of your coaches VMin.....have him sit right seat and call out your speed......start a little below and work up to it and let your eyes learn what it should look like
never easy to do, but easy to say just go faster.....keep your eyes where you want to go not for an exit
I have had a couple of coaches reference corner speed - eg “you can take T3 at 70” for example.
I very rarely, if ever, check the speedo at entry. I almost entirely rely on feel and (I’m guessing) some combo of brake time/pressure vs my usual/baseline.
My question is whether in the long run I am better to rely on feel and check speeds/etc either via telemetry (which I do currently) and the occasional check at exit (which I also do occasionally) or should I develop the ability to glance at entry?
Thanks Der ABT for sharing. Agree with Matt, I rely for most corners (also those for which I am as quick / almost as quick as a pro driver) on my feel / instincts, these are often trailbraking situations on the verge of loosing grip. However, for the “mental” corners where I am way too slow, just realising that my entry speed can be say 5km/h higher and I am still well within safety limits is a good idea and already worked on other tracks / corners and finally I developed a much better feel for the corner. Won’t do that for very complex corners like Eau Rouge thought, Risk of things going wrong too high.
First time I post a question in this thread. Interested in you view on how I overcome a very specific issue. I typically have for every corner on a track a plan B, I memorize the run off areas, know whether they are paved or gravel pit, gras etc. For those corners without enough room to develop an emergency plan, I struggle to be quick, and I loose speed by a quite considerable margin.
Good example is Spa, corner T9, rather slow lefthander, hanging to the outside, low grip. You can use the curb, after the curb comes astro turf and then a concrete wall. I am massively slower than my pro coach and we discussed the issue, it’s not the line but it’s in my head.
For the videos, fast forward to 1.14, that will get you to the short straight between Bruxelles and T9. My fastest continuous lap, I’m really slow in T9 (almost 15km/h slower, time slip to pro c. 0.4)
And here you go with the RaceNavigator analysis, green is the first lap above, blue the better one and then orange the pro driving:
My coach suggested that I build confidence over time, which sound perfectly fine. Not really sure I am looking for shortcuts, but how do others deal with situations in which you don’t have a plan B for a corner and you know that mistakes will come costly...?
Thanks for thoughts
Sven
No amount of confidence is going to make up for the fact that your entry is a lot tighter/shallower than his for no reason. You'd gain speed just by setting up your entry better without taking on more risk. His entry is wider and he's quicker to the apex.
No amount of confidence is going to make up for the fact that your entry is a lot tighter/shallower than his for no reason. You'd gain speed just by setting up your entry better without taking on more risk. His entry is wider and he's quicker to the apex.
This is a really good point. I was just comparing some data and video between me and my coach at VIR through Hog Pen. He was gaining an entire second through there. It was obvious that he carried more speed through 17 but why? Once I slowed down the video and compared our positions it was pretty obvious that he was using probably 1-2 wheel widths more of the curb than I was. I feel like it will be easy to work on car position next time and add speed as I gain more consistency.
This is a really good point. I was just comparing some data and video between me and my coach at VIR through Hog Pen. He was gaining an entire second through there. It was obvious that he carried more speed through 17 but why? Once I slowed down the video and compared our positions it was pretty obvious that he was using probably 1-2 wheel widths more of the curb than I was. I feel like it will be easy to work on car position next time and add speed as I gain more consistency.
Using more of the inside curb width JUST THAT MUCH can have a profound effect on traveled radius. You can look at the data to validate this.
That means that you can release the brake at a higher speed and a small increase in vMin has an equally profound effect on AVERAGE speed through the corner complex AND down the subsequent straight...
__________________ -Peter Krause www.peterkrause.net www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
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No amount of confidence is going to make up for the fact that your entry is a lot tighter/shallower than his for no reason. You'd gain speed just by setting up your entry better without taking on more risk. His entry is wider and he's quicker to the apex.
Can anyone suggest an approach to deal with a stumbling block I've encountered.
In high speed turns (Summit 3 and 10) where my vMin is 80+, I'm developing a habit of coasting a little before braking. I've advanced to trail braking in those turns although not all the way to apex but the trade off is a pause between coming off the gas and onto the brakes. I think the lift is making me feel comfortable going to the brakes with a balanced car and I don't want to ingrain the habit.
Can anyone suggest an approach to deal with a stumbling block I've encountered.
In high speed turns (Summit 3 and 10) where my vMin is 80+, I'm developing a habit of coasting a little before braking. I've advanced to trail braking in those turns although not all the way to apex but the trade off is a pause between coming off the gas and onto the brakes. I think the lift is making me feel comfortable going to the brakes with a balanced car and I don't want to ingrain the habit.
One approach, to give you comfort and peace of mind, is to go to like a 1 or 1.5 brake pedal , rather than coasting, and then braking for real. Over time you'll get out of the coasting habit, and can then readjust your actual brake point, knowing the car is settled
Can anyone suggest an approach to deal with a stumbling block I've encountered.
In high speed turns (Summit 3 and 10) where my vMin is 80+, I'm developing a habit of coasting a little before braking. I've advanced to trail braking in those turns although not all the way to apex but the trade off is a pause between coming off the gas and onto the brakes. I think the lift is making me feel comfortable going to the brakes with a balanced car and I don't want to ingrain the habit.
You've already got the coasting habit if your doing it. Think of it this way, you have the corner coming up (cue), coast (response), and reward (made the corner safely). Now you have to change one of those things to build you new habit. The first and last (cue and reward) are locked in, so you have to change your response. To do that, you'll have to make a detailed plan of exactly what your going to do, visualize it, and have it so ingrained that you can't mess up executing it. Write this plan out. I'm going to go full throttle until I get to xxx, then I'll go immediately to a 3 (of 10) brake pedal, slowly releasing the brake pedal until I get to xxx, then picking up throttle. Focus on the End of Braking (EoB as Ross Bentley often says) and work on that area.
Another good practice for this is to do a some laps slower than normal and really focus on carrying the brake to your EoB point. This will help to ingrain that habit and make it easier to do as you pick up speed.
I think what is complicating it in my mind is that for those turns I'm shedding very little speed. In 3 I'm going from 90/91 to 82/83. It's uphill. I can almost do it without braking at all. Indeed, when I'm following a slower car I just lift. So going to a little tiny bit of brake and doing my normal braking is very very close to the same exact thing.
My brain is telling me that if I stay in the gas to the braking point I'll need more brake and maybe I just don't trust my trail braking skills with a less balanced car at a higher speed when I initially apply the brakes? I don't have this problem in 1 and 5 where I'm going to big brakes down to 50.
Also, this is less of a problem in 10 where I am going 100 -> 83.
Taking in your combined thoughts, does going immediately to brakes but super light for the whole duration move me in the right direction? So long as I have some pedal pressure for the span and then start moving the end of throttle point closer to turn in I'll eventually get where I need to get to.
07-28-2018, 01:42 PM
