Has Club Racing Gotten Too Aggressive?
08-03-2010, 04:24 PM
#61
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In the end, both of these guys are pro or semi-pro drivers and are used to this stuff anyway, so shouldn't be fussed about this. But I agree with most of the comments above, and you can't have different rules for those willing to accept that "rubbin is racin".
08-03-2010, 04:40 PM
#62
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What's the big deal here? I'm missing it. A real light tap on the start? This was a race right? 13/13 or not, cars are on the track racing, there will occasionally be some accidental and very light contact. If you guys take any more competitiveness out of PCA club racing, it'd be an open track DE.
08-03-2010, 04:48 PM
#63
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I disagree. Take a look at the line of the black car before the flag station, and then after. He has a diagonal across the track and into the path of the white car.
In the end, both of these guys are pro or semi-pro drivers and are used to this stuff anyway, so shouldn't be fussed about this. But I agree with most of the comments above, and you can't have different rules for those willing to accept that "rubbin is racin".
In the end, both of these guys are pro or semi-pro drivers and are used to this stuff anyway, so shouldn't be fussed about this. But I agree with most of the comments above, and you can't have different rules for those willing to accept that "rubbin is racin".
DAVID No 13-13 on this sequence, I know the driver of the car black. The flag man slept at Mosport
08-03-2010, 05:28 PM
#64
Rennlist Member
I kind of see it differently. the diagnol line was a fade, more than a diagnol, and the outside car did a distinct move toward the inside making the contact. Heck, he was at the rear quarter panel, if the door is slowly being closed in club racing, my view is that he needs to back out. It just looked overly agreesive to some. again, most of us that does our own work, shouldnt have to add body work to our "things to do list" before the next event. If this was a pro supercup race, then yes, that would be fine! 
Hey, Ive been involved in a few bumps and grinds over the last 10 years and stuff happens, I know. Its the intentional stuff I have an issue with. Hey, maybe I saw it wrong, but from the video, it looked like the car behind was sending a quick message to the leader, no?
Hey, Ive been involved in a few bumps and grinds over the last 10 years and stuff happens, I know. Its the intentional stuff I have an issue with. Hey, maybe I saw it wrong, but from the video, it looked like the car behind was sending a quick message to the leader, no? I disagree. Take a look at the line of the black car before the flag station, and then after. He has a diagonal across the track and into the path of the white car.
In the end, both of these guys are pro or semi-pro drivers and are used to this stuff anyway, so shouldn't be fussed about this. But I agree with most of the comments above, and you can't have different rules for those willing to accept that "rubbin is racin".
In the end, both of these guys are pro or semi-pro drivers and are used to this stuff anyway, so shouldn't be fussed about this. But I agree with most of the comments above, and you can't have different rules for those willing to accept that "rubbin is racin".
08-03-2010, 05:40 PM
#65
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watched the start at mosport many times
not sure how far the T1 right hander is from the green flag drop.
if the turn is comgin right up, then if i were the blk lead car, i would move left to set up for the turn as the inside car was not a threat. i dont find that to be aggro or blocking, blk was in lead, had the line, was ahead of white car.
but if the turn is 1/8 mile or so down the stretch, then i see no reason for the move and i see it as an intimidation move.
that said, if i were the white outside car, i would have expected the blk car to move and not just drive into it. like RSR said, it's important to know who u are racing against. i once went three wide into T2 at the start of LS with two friend (yes, i know in SM they do 10 wide into that turn, but p car cost a tad more $), it's tight and all three of us were sawing like hell holding the line and trying not to take the other two cars out. if i didn't know those two cars, i would have bailed. the turn aint that wide and the purse is zero.
not sure how far the T1 right hander is from the green flag drop.
if the turn is comgin right up, then if i were the blk lead car, i would move left to set up for the turn as the inside car was not a threat. i dont find that to be aggro or blocking, blk was in lead, had the line, was ahead of white car.
but if the turn is 1/8 mile or so down the stretch, then i see no reason for the move and i see it as an intimidation move.
that said, if i were the white outside car, i would have expected the blk car to move and not just drive into it. like RSR said, it's important to know who u are racing against. i once went three wide into T2 at the start of LS with two friend (yes, i know in SM they do 10 wide into that turn, but p car cost a tad more $), it's tight and all three of us were sawing like hell holding the line and trying not to take the other two cars out. if i didn't know those two cars, i would have bailed. the turn aint that wide and the purse is zero.
08-03-2010, 06:14 PM
#66
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You know, i just watched it again a bunch of times. You maybe right. putting myself in the black cars shoes, I dont think I would be closing the door or removing someones racing room so early at the start. Maybe it scared the white car. 
I tend to not move over unless I have a very clean shot at protecting a line. At first glance, it sure seemed like an agressive bump that really has no place in club racing. I have no issues with the occasional hitting and bumping when at least there is an attempt to avoid contact, but in this case, it seemed like there was no attempt to avoid it. But to your point, it is so minor, who cares! Maybe it wasnt the best example of the OP's original point. Heck we dont want to get soft here on the RACING LIST! After all, we are racing tough guys that drive "Flat out" thats how we drive! 
I tend to not move over unless I have a very clean shot at protecting a line. At first glance, it sure seemed like an agressive bump that really has no place in club racing. I have no issues with the occasional hitting and bumping when at least there is an attempt to avoid contact, but in this case, it seemed like there was no attempt to avoid it. But to your point, it is so minor, who cares! Maybe it wasnt the best example of the OP's original point. Heck we dont want to get soft here on the RACING LIST! After all, we are racing tough guys that drive "Flat out" thats how we drive! What's the big deal here? I'm missing it. A real light tap on the start? This was a race right? 13/13 or not, cars are on the track racing, there will occasionally be some accidental and very light contact. If you guys take any more competitiveness out of PCA club racing, it'd be an open track DE.
08-03-2010, 06:44 PM
#67
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3 wide fun through turn 2 at laguna..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBGz3PD75hQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBGz3PD75hQ
i once went three wide into T2 at the start of LS with two friend (yes, i know in SM they do 10 wide into that turn, but p car cost a tad more $), it's tight and all three of us were sawing like hell holding the line and trying not to take the other two cars out. if i didn't know those two cars, i would have bailed. the turn aint that wide and the purse is zero.
08-03-2010, 06:53 PM
#68
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what is in the Gen 1 RX7 and the E36?
08-03-2010, 07:01 PM
#69
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The original comment for this forum was that "CupCar" drivers were too aggressive, not about a start at Mosport. What happened at Mosport is racing. If you want to be apart of it then go ahead, there is no one making you do this and if you do not know the consequences then quit now.
What people do not understand if they have never driven a $100k cup car in a race setting, is that, there is truly no-one in our class that is O.K. with throwing a car away and simply getting another...Yes there are many people that can afford to do so and good for them but no one wants to lose money at this.
I have not been racing in this PCA Class all that long, but I can tell you that the Red Run Group Cup guys are much easier to work with then any other class of cars. The lower class cars simply throw it in the corner and hope for the best expecting the faster Cup Car to work around them. I have had more close calls passing slower class cars then a Cup Car at any point.
I would be very interested in statistically seeing what groups produce the greatest number of incidents as a percentage of participation??
As for Cup Car incidents, these cars are traveling at greater speeds, take longer to slow down and "things" happen much faster then any other PCA class.
What people do not understand if they have never driven a $100k cup car in a race setting, is that, there is truly no-one in our class that is O.K. with throwing a car away and simply getting another...Yes there are many people that can afford to do so and good for them but no one wants to lose money at this.
I have not been racing in this PCA Class all that long, but I can tell you that the Red Run Group Cup guys are much easier to work with then any other class of cars. The lower class cars simply throw it in the corner and hope for the best expecting the faster Cup Car to work around them. I have had more close calls passing slower class cars then a Cup Car at any point.
I would be very interested in statistically seeing what groups produce the greatest number of incidents as a percentage of participation??
As for Cup Car incidents, these cars are traveling at greater speeds, take longer to slow down and "things" happen much faster then any other PCA class.
08-03-2010, 08:05 PM
#71
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The big accident happened at turn 2 anyway, 3 cup cars. The track got oiled and coolant all over it, slick track and guys trying too hard = crashing in many ways. Just one of those weekends of racing. Last year no one crashed!
08-03-2010, 08:17 PM
#72
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Oh no, you guys aren't getting off THAT easy. POS spec class like what populates most of Europe. VW/Renault/Opel/Vauxhall/Ford that we don't even get photos of here. That's why I mentioned a 924 2.0. ANY 944 is probably middle-tier.
08-03-2010, 08:30 PM
#73
Race Director
While I have yet to race under the 13/13 rule.....I find it VERY interesting that in my only wheel to wheel experience in 24 hours of Lemons I found the other drivers VERY clean....sure in terms of $$$ they have almost nothing invested (a set of brake pads maybe) compared to a cup car...but to them its HUNDREDS of hours of their time and they DON'T want to wreck it... honestly I see more "risks" on track in "normal" racing than I do in lemons......it makes no sense at all..but it is true
My thinking to why it happens is similar to what many DE groups call GT3 syndrome....where some wealthy person decides to get a "track" car...buys a GT3 since its a great track car and proceeds to take their rookie self on track with predictable results..... Add a cup car to the mix where costs are HIGHER it takes way more $$$$ to make it happen...which recruits people who work far more than they drive...and in the few times a year they can get out to play with their toy..they want to drive "fast"...but don't have the skills to do it.....and end up with a cool pic on "wrecked exotics"
Sure its easy for a low budget guy like me to point fingers........but I am merely expressing things I have seen personally at DE or races I have attended.....
My thinking to why it happens is similar to what many DE groups call GT3 syndrome....where some wealthy person decides to get a "track" car...buys a GT3 since its a great track car and proceeds to take their rookie self on track with predictable results..... Add a cup car to the mix where costs are HIGHER it takes way more $$$$ to make it happen...which recruits people who work far more than they drive...and in the few times a year they can get out to play with their toy..they want to drive "fast"...but don't have the skills to do it.....and end up with a cool pic on "wrecked exotics"
Sure its easy for a low budget guy like me to point fingers........but I am merely expressing things I have seen personally at DE or races I have attended.....
08-03-2010, 10:54 PM
#74
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I have met plenty of guys at PCA races and so far whilst I have met many well to do people I have yet to meet anyone who lights there cigars with $100 bills and does not car about their car. Am I missing something but it seems that wealthy cup car drivers are the route of all evil however it has not been my experience so far.
08-03-2010, 11:28 PM
#75
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While I have yet to race under the 13/13 rule.....I find it VERY interesting that in my only wheel to wheel experience in 24 hours of Lemons I found the other drivers VERY clean....sure in terms of $$$ they have almost nothing invested (a set of brake pads maybe) compared to a cup car...but to them its HUNDREDS of hours of their time and they DON'T want to wreck it... honestly I see more "risks" on track in "normal" racing than I do in lemons......it makes no sense at all..but it is true
My thinking to why it happens is similar to what many DE groups call GT3 syndrome....where some wealthy person decides to get a "track" car...buys a GT3 since its a great track car and proceeds to take their rookie self on track with predictable results..... Add a cup car to the mix where costs are HIGHER it takes way more $$$$ to make it happen...which recruits people who work far more than they drive...and in the few times a year they can get out to play with their toy..they want to drive "fast"...but don't have the skills to do it.....and end up with a cool pic on "wrecked exotics"
Sure its easy for a low budget guy like me to point fingers........but I am merely expressing things I have seen personally at DE or races I have attended.....
My thinking to why it happens is similar to what many DE groups call GT3 syndrome....where some wealthy person decides to get a "track" car...buys a GT3 since its a great track car and proceeds to take their rookie self on track with predictable results..... Add a cup car to the mix where costs are HIGHER it takes way more $$$$ to make it happen...which recruits people who work far more than they drive...and in the few times a year they can get out to play with their toy..they want to drive "fast"...but don't have the skills to do it.....and end up with a cool pic on "wrecked exotics"
Sure its easy for a low budget guy like me to point fingers........but I am merely expressing things I have seen personally at DE or races I have attended.....
Doesnt mean they are competent... but work is usually not what is standing in the way.