wanna911

They take Dyno Dynamics in the SE. Which can be up to 12% lower than a dynojet. But they just threaten that if you get challenged they "could" take you to a dynojet and you "could" be dq'd based on that.

I think the SE should at least be able to get dyno's at the bigger events.

RSRRacer

I was one of the drivers that was tagged. I had planned to post my own thread but I thought I would just do it here.

I'd like to apologize for two things then offer some info.

First I'll apologize for causing the caution that cost 2-3 laps in the sprint race. I rarely spin or lose control and have maybe had 5 spins in hundreds of race laps across several years. Bottom line is that I was distracted when I saw Cory pulled over and did not know at the time if he was still moving or if he had hit anything (he had not... just a flat tire.) Sure enough, the car followed my eyes and I pinched the exit. Basic rookie mistake and I oversteered and hooked the car into the tires on the inside. It was a mild impact on driver's right. The car is fine other than a front bumper that was popped off, sheetmetal and a tie rod.

Second, I'll apologize for the car being reclassed. I just bought the car a month ago after trying it out (rental) at VIR. I had not had any work done to the car and frankly didn't look into it that much because this car was just going to be a placeholder for a 997 Cup and I did not want to miss VIR or Road America. Folks that have run with me, ahead of me, beside me, behind me and/or have access to results from years back can vouch that I don't need to cheat to win. Still, the driver is responsible, not the crew or team or prior owner. I'll either continue to run in GTA1 or I will have a PCA Scrutineer examine the car (and publish the findings) to validate that I have done what I need to do to put the car back into GTC3.

As to all the comments I would hear about pulling on 996 or even 997 cup cars.... come on guys, the skill level in the 996 and 997 cup car classes is massivley variant. When you go thru T1 with 5 MPH more than the guy in front of you, or the kink at 15 MPH more, your going to pass them.

Most imporant part of the weekend is that the drivers involved in the accident at the kink are alive. It nearly brought tears to my eyes when I drove by the wreckage and I began saying a few prayers immediately. Seeing another competitor in a mangled car, apparently unconscious, slumped forward....put the weekend into perspective.

TT Gasman

Great discussion. I don't see anything wrong with pushing the envelope within the rules, as long as you don't break them. You should have seen what used to go on in NHRA Super Stock back in the day, there were guys spending tons of money to max out everything. Consequently there was a huge difference between the winners/ record holders vs the "also ran"s. Not condoning it, just saying that's racin

bobt993

I think it would benefit PCA to contract a portable dyno to show up at the track. Initially this should not be for compliance purposes, but fact finding. The cost of the dyno is offset at the NASA events by racers wanting to check their cars at the track and pay for a reasonably priced pull. As far as accuracy versus other dyno's it really does not matter much if all podium cars are checked at the same time. I had to wait some 40mins while other cars were loaded and unloaded on the dyno during an event.

Larry brings up a valid point. There is an enormous incentive for shops to produce/tune fast(er) cars that consistently podium. I am sure most shops prefer to maximize their efforts by following the guidelines and getting every ounce they can out of the rules, but it does make the alternative tempting.

FredC

say: displacement, compression, and to see if a valve job was done?

Gary R.

Cams, type of pistons would be something to note also...

FredC

Just to throw this out there... How would dyno results be interpreted in PCA? Is it that bad that a fresh blue-printed motor provides an edge to a car in a given class? If so, then how do you account for the edge provided by a better suspension set-up? I always wondered how the dyno thing makes sense given that the motor is one component (albeit a large one) of performance....

analogmike

LOL!!!!

MUSSBERGER

And what about Zmax?

My opinions are worth the price paid for them which ain't much but the fastest drivers I've seen are doing it with car setup and skill. Look at what Paolo has done after having his car fixed. You could tell that he had the skill by watching the prefix video.

FredC

Exactly. That's the point. What about removing the wipers, taping the front hood, running with an open airbox and more aerodynamic yet legal front bumper cover? How can all the things that can be done by one and not the others be taken into consideration when determining a car's class in the dyno world?

NaroEscape

totally agree.

Here's the problem: in PCA, we've gotten soooo far from stock and still calling them stock class cars. Did a stock '88 911 come with JRZ's and cambar plates? No. then why are they allowed in Stock? Stock should be stock, how it came from the factory with safety equipment added. any modification bumps up a class....ok, so most people now would be up a class. So what? you would all be racing together.

This is why I race in GT....so few silly rules except for this tire thing....

bobt993

Fred, good question. The reality as Bob has suggested is that there are too many rules and attempts to level the playing field. How does a dyno help? HP/wt ratios would be bracketed better. If you make everything free but tire types and the ratio it makes for closer racing. Typically cars fit into certain brackets with little changes to make the ratio closer to your target. Dropping 50 to 75 lbs out of a car is reasonable. Or running 100 lbs of ballast to move a class if your really heavy has very little financial hit.

In an effort to make the classes more competitive the reverse has happened. Developing/balancing a "stock" engine is not cheap. Installing a top rate suspension improves handling, but requires a lot more skill than an extra 30hp does. A dyno pull would certain provide a better understanding of how accurate the factory published hp is to real life especially on the newer cars that are restricted by noise, emissions etc from the CATS and exhaust systems.

Sean F

It's not Just HP, the ratio between HP and weight. You have a stronger engine, you run more weight. Little stuff is little stuff, let's get the stuff that matters taken care of first. Of course, things like brakes and gears come into play then.

multi21

I echo what ltc said about cheating in the kid kart ranks. But usually the kid doesn't even know. It's the dads that are telling the engine builders to advance the timing or other.

The kid kart ranks are the worse because you have a group of parents that want there kid to win at any cost. As the kid gets older and moves up the ranks in classes, there seems to be less of it or better ways to conceil it. The fuel additives are usually real hard to detect.

When I raced, a competitor that was right behind me in 2nd didn't pass fuel tech and was DQed for a heat race. The next race he was 1/2 lap behind me. This time his fuel passed tech. The problem with this on site testing is that if you really wanted to suspend the competitor for cheating when it comes to something like fuel, a protest would involve impound and outside lab testing rather than the on site testing etc. etc. Certainly not worth the trouble at the amatuer ranks.

FredC

I am not saying that I disagree with the dyno thing, but to me it is like some recent rules proposal about camber plates. Say we require dyno figures for classifying cars, what's the next thing that pca will mandate or try to regulate? Where does it end? And the adding balast thing doesn't work really because power is power and once you are up to speed you will go faster with the stronger motor and higher weight (ceteris paribus).