Veloce Raptor

Wayne, frankly, I really do not care what you think. Jgrant is right: you are becoming just as much a stalker as Ryan did. So you are in excellent company.

I have no idea what Pierre's car makes. However, I am sure that Seth would admit that Pierre (on that day) was a slightly better driver.

We used Motec, and yes I saw Seth's data. Why do you ask? There were a couple of places I was faster, and a couple where he was faster. The biggest spread where he got his time advantage was in hard braking, especially at the end of the back straight. I had never driven such a powerful car that had non-power brakes and no ABS, and as Seth and James will attest, it took me some time to acclimate to how to use them properly w/o locking up and flatspotting tires. Oh, well! that is why Seth is the better driver and I was cautious. Man's got to know his limitations.

Mark, please stop embarassing yourself here. It is an eternity, but not as much as your 4 seconds (talk about excuses). Frankly, in a $100,000 car I hadn't ever driven & which I would have to pay for if I wrecked, it was exactly where I had planned to be. No excuses: reality. Now tell us again why all those who did not vote "for" you in your own poll are "wrong".





Professional Racing and Driving Coach

Veloce Raptor

And on cue, there is Wayne with his trademarked homoerotic projection.

Not that there is anything wrong with that, stalker.







Professional Racing and Driving Coach

mark kibort

Let me get back to civil mode as I see you can dish it out, but dont like it in return.

I see the problem, you cant disassociate "torque" with "power" coming off the corner. I still dont know what your preception of the two is, but what i can tell you, is that torque at the rear wheels, (the force that will accelerate you) will be determined by HP. Now, using the graphs, you can see Dez's hypothetical engines develope 350hp out of a turn and 400hp down the straight. There are some turns where you might hit them closer to 400hp. (you dont always hit turn at the bottom of the gear's rpm range.)

Now, the confusion: you say that torque is more manageble than HP? If both cars have 350hp coming out of a corner, they both will have the same accelerative forces to the rear wheel, REGARDLESS of the engine torque. (one having more engine torque as a peak than the other like our example)

dont get too caugth up in the "max " speed discussion, as that is power related too. anything that incorporates speed, will be power related. torque off a turn, at a speed, = hp. torque to accelerate at a speed = HP, torque to push through the air and get maximum speed = power. Power determines acceleration.

Regarding the poll, like i said, i wanted to see how many are in the same boat as you, and the results are telling. There is NO question my answers are correct, because they are following the law, not mine, Newton's.

Thanks for reviewing my video. Hmm. I dont know what you are talking about in 3. the back is on the verge of stepping out and keeping me from getting on the gas, as I always use that corner in determining how the car is "hooking up". sometimes, with a "good" set of the used tires i use, and the right conditions, it sticks like glue. others, it gets a bit more skatey. I see the point though. as far as pinching off my exits, can you give me a couple of turns where you think this is happening. Im letting the car unwind with power and it seems to be goint out to the outside birm. Keep in mind, these are 1:39.0 laps with a 3000lb, 306rwhp 20year old, rubberbushing, shot suspension car. . Not excuses, but i do have to drive around the cars "street and oldness".
But I think i get your point. even though i have some push, at the apex , get on the gas and let the car unwind earlier. I have a knee jerk reaction that i might have to enter the turn a little slower to do this, what do you think. I tend to overbake entries, and trailbrake. There would be a trade off to get the car slowed down earlier so i could do what you suggest.
Hey, thanks for the tips. Ill see if i can make them work at Sears next week!

mk

Veloce Raptor

Oh, please. You lost all of us here.







Professional Racing and Driving Coach

A.Wayne

Well i can tell you since you do not know ....

Seth's BMW makes more Peak TQ than Pierres Honda , the Honda makes more Peak HP than the BMW ..


Is this one of those times where HP trumps TQ ?

Veloce Raptor

Who knows? Who cares??

Maybe it's just a factor of the better driver prevailing? Since you know nothing about this, perhaps you should just pipe down.







Professional Racing and Driving Coach

A.Wayne

Great dancing .............................................

Yeah, you are right , who cares about TQ and HP in this thread......

mark kibort

You know as much as I do that a 310rwhp car has no buisness out there in GT, but i had fun beating and rallying with a few in the back. Hey, i won 400 bucks too, so im a pro too! . Point is, you know what it takes to run 1:38 at laguna. most of these top pros ran slower than this back in '1999, with a heck of a lot more power and machinery. Dude, its my street car that has been gutted with a set of headers as the ONLY engine mod.

Hey, getting back to civil mod, i know what its like to drive someone else's car. i think 2 seconds is fine when you back off.

Now, as far as the POLL goes, if they didnt vote for "me", it really means they dont have a grasp of the basic concepts here, mathematically that is. I can take most highschool phyics students and stump them for a few mins before they figure it out. The reason, is there are 2 torques. One at the wheels and at the engine. we have been marketed to death by the media and most of it is due to the other factors involved with cars and transmissions, that most never deal with. If there were no transmissions, you could just use your torque argument. But, if there were infinitely variable transmissions, you would never speak of engine torque again, as the engine would ALWAYS operate at max HP, not max torque. max toruqe in this situation would be irrelevant. If you understand why that is, you understand why those who voted against me and Newton, are wrong. In that case, max torque at the rear wheels would always be optimized, go down with speed proportionally, and never have anything to do with max torque capability of the engine. NEVER!

So, let me talk about this to you, like any racer will relate. If i have a V8 vs an I6, coming off a turn at the bottom of a gear's RPM will generally favor a high torque engine, because its flatness of the hp curve. But, its not the rule. If that I6, that revs higher, has the same HP at the same speed, when you press on the gas, you will have the same accelerative force at the rear wheels, EVEN if the engine torque is much less. Power at any speed, determines acceleration. This is why most race teams do pain staking work to optimize power, not engine torque. close ratio gear boxes on the R8s are a great example of this. not so close ratio gear boxes of the 5 speed diesel R10, is a great example of a broader HP curve, and no need for the closer ratios.
acceleration of both can easily be the same at any turn, even with 2x torque factor in the same car with either of those engines.

Is that any clearer?


mk

A.Wayne

310 RWHP ...............Dats what the touring cars are making

mark kibort

Do me (us) a small favor and please please please read what i wrote. I think if you have an open mind, you will undersand. I not trying to force 1st year physis on you , just some simple data points very relevant to our sport.
you obviosly know how to drive, you been in races. When coaching to really truely understand the mechanics of the system, i think, is an advantage.

Again, what you say is generally true, most high torque engines for the same hP will have a broader HP range, meaning more torque at the rear wheels coming off a turn. coming off a turn, you are generally in the mid range of gear RPM , right, especially, if you are on the gas at apex. That said, even if you got caught in traffic and forgot to shift, the rear wheel torque would follow the shape of the HP curve. If there was an engine that had less torque, but the same hp at that same speed, it would accelerate exactly the same. Start factoring in gear spacing, and suddenly , the broad HP curve is not an advntage, except for having to shift more, which could be thought as an advantage. (another discussion entirely)

mk

mark kibort

And thats why my car has always been a decent "Touring" car at a much lower price, and a lot less technology. Just too old and too many cylinders to run with them instead. However, it does run the same times as Koni GS.

ew928

Bigger HP.
Bigger Tork.
Lower Gear Ratio.

Get out of corner faster.
If wheelspin.
Then Driver with Heavy Right Foot = Fail.
Else Downshift.

(Something like that. I think)

Veloce Raptor

Mark, I have read what you wrote, and in a classroom of propellerheads, I am sure you'd be credible. But I also know what works and doesn't on most technical road courses, which is why I answered Dez the way I did, and which is why, in the real world, my response was correct. And which is why, despite your strident comments, my coaching of others seems to work very successfully, for which I am very grateful.

That you and a couple of other folks disagree is fine. I have no need to have people on an anonymous internet message board tell me I am "right", and am not bothered if some tell me I am "wrong".

But you really need to do some brutal self-analysis, Mark, and learn why you are so intolerant of disagreement, and why it causes you to get more & more & more strident and insulting and derisive. If I didn't know better, I'd say that you argue like a girl. And I mean that in the most constructive way possible.






Professional Racing and Driving Coach

mark kibort

I do understand where you are coming from. In general terms, you are right, but the argument was, basically are there exceptions, and how do we determine with basic math, where they are. I gave you an example of two cars, one with more torque than the other. (same HP) Would you select the greater torque version of the two for someone like , Dez or youself? certainly not. The BMW with 60ftlbs less torque would trump the porsche 928 in all areas and there is not one point on a race track where this would not be true. why, because it has more hp over more of the operational rpm/speed range.

Thats it, its really simple. You, in your coaching, will have to blend practical with theoretical knowledge. Im sure as Magnus said, we are arguing about 1% of the racing concepts here. My point and passion has always been with the truth. Now, we are not talking driveability issues, that you might be leaning toward, with a high strung, high rpm engine, but you have driven BMWs, you know that they are a breeze to drive, expecially 2 seconds slower than Seth on the race track I dont know how many 928s you have driven, but they are a little clunky, and a BMW seems to drive itself! Thats not the point though. different engine, same car was the comparison. the one with more average HP , especially at the top of its revs where you spend the most time, would be the engine I would select.

mk

jgrant