View Poll Results: Who won the debate: MK (HP) or VR (Torque)
Mk won with a simple to understand concept that HP determines torque at the wheels at any speed.
25
17.48%
MK won: When comparing equal HP cars, the one with less torque COULD be better on the road course.
6
4.20%
VR won: When comparing equal HP cars, the one with more torque is better on a road course.
44
30.77%
Neither, as physics dont apply to race cars
18
12.59%
I don't want to open this can of worms again!
50
34.97%
Voters: 143. You may not vote on this poll
Poll: Who won the HP vs Torque debate?
03-16-2009, 09:10 PM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Poll: Who won the HP vs Torque debate?
We had 20+ pages of debate on the subject of the importance of HP vs torque on a Road Race car. It turned out to be a battle, with some comedy. Now, after all those pages and some validation from guys I respected before they posted their opinions. (i.e. Chris C., Magmus, etc) We never really got VR (and Co.) to conceed. So, since racing season doesnt start for a few more days, and I like to see clean endings, I figured I would do a poll for those here on the list.
The Who was Right? Poll. Or the "Who won the debate" poll.
VR said:
Mark, in the interest of civility, I will merely say that you are incorrect, and that the higher TQ vehicle--all other things being equal--will be more useful on a road course.
The original question was as paraphrased by VR:
What started this topic was Dez' query about which of two identical 400hp cars wuld be better on a road course? One with low TQ or one with high TQ?
Are you actually saying the low TQ one would be better on a road course? Are you actually saying "it depends"?
The answer was provided with comparitive dyno runs for two equal hp cars, but one with more torque than the other proving that it does depend on HP curve shape and that a lower torque engine can be better, accelerate quicker at any point on any road race course. The answers are found on page 17 before it turns into a jab-fest.https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-a...eality-17.html
The actual dyno graphs:
https://rennlist.com/forums/6282005-post246.html
Final answer proof:
https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-a...eality-20.html
So does it depend????????????
The Who was Right? Poll. Or the "Who won the debate" poll.
VR said:
Mark, in the interest of civility, I will merely say that you are incorrect, and that the higher TQ vehicle--all other things being equal--will be more useful on a road course.
The original question was as paraphrased by VR:
What started this topic was Dez' query about which of two identical 400hp cars wuld be better on a road course? One with low TQ or one with high TQ?
Are you actually saying the low TQ one would be better on a road course? Are you actually saying "it depends"?
The answer was provided with comparitive dyno runs for two equal hp cars, but one with more torque than the other proving that it does depend on HP curve shape and that a lower torque engine can be better, accelerate quicker at any point on any road race course. The answers are found on page 17 before it turns into a jab-fest.https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-a...eality-17.html
The actual dyno graphs:
https://rennlist.com/forums/6282005-post246.html
Final answer proof:
https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-a...eality-20.html
So does it depend????????????
Last edited by mark kibort; 03-17-2009 at 12:27 PM.
03-16-2009, 09:14 PM
#2
Rennlist Member
Oh, for Christ's sake, Mark......
Let it rest.
Professional Racing and Driving Coach
Let it rest.
Professional Racing and Driving Coach
03-16-2009, 09:31 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
03-16-2009, 09:47 PM
#7
Race Car
Join Date: Apr 2005
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OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not this again.
I still side with hp, revs and decent torque numbers above all. The thing is that there is a balance no matter what, and no one is right or wrong. For the Corvette's and Audi's, they win with torque, for the Porsches, Ferrari's and BMW's, they win with HP and revs.
Now we just need another torque monster with factory support to jump into the ALMS GT2 frey and that will settle it once and for all. But with BMW, Porsche and Ferrari there, I wouldn't get my hopes up.
Not this again.
I still side with hp, revs and decent torque numbers above all. The thing is that there is a balance no matter what, and no one is right or wrong. For the Corvette's and Audi's, they win with torque, for the Porsches, Ferrari's and BMW's, they win with HP and revs.
Now we just need another torque monster with factory support to jump into the ALMS GT2 frey and that will settle it once and for all. But with BMW, Porsche and Ferrari there, I wouldn't get my hopes up.
Trending Topics
03-16-2009, 09:55 PM
#9
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
We all know the trade offs, but the question was which is better for a road course, same hp, but higher or lower torque. I proved with two equal hp curves, but disparate torque curves that lower torque CAN make more rear wheel torque at ANY vehicle speed, anywhere on the track. If it depends on the shape of the HP curve, then VR has to be wrong, right? 
.
This is a white or black , wrong or right answer. A broader HP curve wins everytime, regardless of comparitive engine torque values.
Ill be the first to admit, heck, because I drive a torque monster, that generally, most "high torque" engines have a broad HP curve, but its not the rule and thats the point!
mk
.This is a white or black , wrong or right answer. A broader HP curve wins everytime, regardless of comparitive engine torque values.
Ill be the first to admit, heck, because I drive a torque monster, that generally, most "high torque" engines have a broad HP curve, but its not the rule and thats the point!
mk
OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not this again.
I still side with hp, revs and decent torque numbers above all. The thing is that there is a balance no matter what, and no one is right or wrong. For the Corvette's and Audi's, they win with torque, for the Porsches, Ferrari's and BMW's, they win with HP and revs.
Now we just need another torque monster with factory support to jump into the ALMS GT2 frey and that will settle it once and for all. But with BMW, Porsche and Ferrari there, I wouldn't get my hopes up.
Not this again.
I still side with hp, revs and decent torque numbers above all. The thing is that there is a balance no matter what, and no one is right or wrong. For the Corvette's and Audi's, they win with torque, for the Porsches, Ferrari's and BMW's, they win with HP and revs.
Now we just need another torque monster with factory support to jump into the ALMS GT2 frey and that will settle it once and for all. But with BMW, Porsche and Ferrari there, I wouldn't get my hopes up.
03-16-2009, 10:04 PM
#10
OMG lol, Dez you start the longest thread arguments EVER hahahaha!
Good thing you didn't come to VIR this past weekend, sucked :/
You better attend the rumble at the oak tree event in June!
Good thing you didn't come to VIR this past weekend, sucked :/
You better attend the rumble at the oak tree event in June!
03-16-2009, 11:44 PM
#14
Still plays with cars.
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Mark and company, Forgive me but I used or abused my powers to add another choice I bet everyone (well except Mark) wished was there from the start. You now have the "I don't want to open that can of worms again" option. Sorry, but I had to do it
Best,
Best,