Incident at Road America - Please Comment
09-12-2008, 03:43 AM
#46
Formula One Spin Doctor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
09-12-2008, 08:44 AM
#47
Nordschleife Master
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Vacuuming Cal Speedway
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WARNING: Contrarian Point of View Ahead.....
Unfortunately that video washes out the track as they approach the turn. Since I've never been to RA it's hard to pass judgement without seeing another video of that approach and turn. While it does appear from this video that the 7-cup moved left and initiated contact, as Jim Breakey pointed out, that's the line some take to enter the turn that they were approaching. The overtaking car has responsibilites here too and if that's the approach, perhaps he should have backed out and used his superior power for the coming straight.
Remember there's a reason he's behind to begin with. He qualified 1-1/2 seconds behind the 7-cup, and was more than 2 seconds per lap slower in the previous sprint race according to MyLaps. Obviously the RSR has more HP and was quicker down the straights, but the cup must have been quicker thru the turns and braking to post those significantly faster lap times. Also, this was apparently the first lap of the enduro accoring to MyLaps which may or may not be significant....
I don't necessarily disagree with the consensus here, I just think there are mitigating factors in this incident that are worth discussing for education's sake. Thankfully I'm off to Buttonwillow now to practice my offs so I'll just duck out of here....
Unfortunately that video washes out the track as they approach the turn. Since I've never been to RA it's hard to pass judgement without seeing another video of that approach and turn. While it does appear from this video that the 7-cup moved left and initiated contact, as Jim Breakey pointed out, that's the line some take to enter the turn that they were approaching. The overtaking car has responsibilites here too and if that's the approach, perhaps he should have backed out and used his superior power for the coming straight.
Remember there's a reason he's behind to begin with. He qualified 1-1/2 seconds behind the 7-cup, and was more than 2 seconds per lap slower in the previous sprint race according to MyLaps. Obviously the RSR has more HP and was quicker down the straights, but the cup must have been quicker thru the turns and braking to post those significantly faster lap times. Also, this was apparently the first lap of the enduro accoring to MyLaps which may or may not be significant....
I don't necessarily disagree with the consensus here, I just think there are mitigating factors in this incident that are worth discussing for education's sake. Thankfully I'm off to Buttonwillow now to practice my offs so I'll just duck out of here....
09-12-2008, 09:20 AM
#48
Nordschleife Master
09-12-2008, 09:25 AM
#49
Nordschleife Master
As a Scrutineer for PCA, I can say that with only 1 video posted on Rennlist, you cannot determine all of the facts, from both sides. There are always external factors and the perception of one person might differ from anothers. The race Scrutineers go to great lenghts to find out the facts, look at data (if available) and identify 3rd party people who have video documentation of the incident. The Stewards review the facts and make a determination. I think these Rennlist discussions are simply a waste of time and in cases past just added unnecessary "fuel to the fire". I don't think you can make any concrete, factual determinations of what happened from the video posted.
09-12-2008, 09:29 AM
#50
Three Wheelin'
09-12-2008, 09:30 AM
#51
Rennlist Member
As long as it is inside an enclosed trailer, with the doors closed, don't ask don't tell. Out in the open? No way.
Dave, due to inflation, the price has gone up to $20 and a latte.
Geoffrey validated my point abou tneeding more video to know what really happened.
Dave, due to inflation, the price has gone up to $20 and a latte.
Geoffrey validated my point abou tneeding more video to know what really happened.
09-12-2008, 09:32 AM
#52
Nordschleife Master
Sure whatever. It's an approach like you stated that is the reason cars end up damaged. And now? Both cars got to participate in a 2 lap sprint. There was PLENTY of time (34 laps to be exact) to find the safe opportunity to pass (or be passed).
09-12-2008, 09:35 AM
#53
Nordschleife Master
Sure whatever. It's an approach like you stated that is the reason cars end up damaged.
Just because someone approaches an enduro like a sprint does not mean that they will cause an accident. It depends on a lot of things...
09-12-2008, 09:37 AM
#54
Nordschleife Master
Geoffrey, and therein lies the problem. Too much variability in drivers. Some view it as a 90 minute sprint and others view it as a 90 minute marathon. Most should be viewing it somewhere in the middle. Remind me where they finished again. If this was a sprint, then I could understand, but an enduro? No way.
09-12-2008, 10:03 AM
#56
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
WARNING: Contrarian Point of View Ahead.....
Unfortunately that video washes out the track as they approach the turn. Since I've never been to RA it's hard to pass judgement without seeing another video of that approach and turn. While it does appear from this video that the 7-cup moved left and initiated contact, as Jim Breakey pointed out, that's the line some take to enter the turn that they were approaching. The overtaking car has responsibilites here too and if that's the approach, perhaps he should have backed out and used his superior power for the coming straight.
Remember there's a reason he's behind to begin with. He qualified 1-1/2 seconds behind the 7-cup, and was more than 2 seconds per lap slower in the previous sprint race according to MyLaps. Obviously the RSR has more HP and was quicker down the straights, but the cup must have been quicker thru the turns and braking to post those significantly faster lap times. Also, this was apparently the first lap of the enduro accoring to MyLaps which may or may not be significant....
I don't necessarily disagree with the consensus here, I just think there are mitigating factors in this incident that are worth discussing for education's sake. Thankfully I'm off to Buttonwillow now to practice my offs so I'll just duck out of here....
Unfortunately that video washes out the track as they approach the turn. Since I've never been to RA it's hard to pass judgement without seeing another video of that approach and turn. While it does appear from this video that the 7-cup moved left and initiated contact, as Jim Breakey pointed out, that's the line some take to enter the turn that they were approaching. The overtaking car has responsibilites here too and if that's the approach, perhaps he should have backed out and used his superior power for the coming straight.
Remember there's a reason he's behind to begin with. He qualified 1-1/2 seconds behind the 7-cup, and was more than 2 seconds per lap slower in the previous sprint race according to MyLaps. Obviously the RSR has more HP and was quicker down the straights, but the cup must have been quicker thru the turns and braking to post those significantly faster lap times. Also, this was apparently the first lap of the enduro accoring to MyLaps which may or may not be significant....
I don't necessarily disagree with the consensus here, I just think there are mitigating factors in this incident that are worth discussing for education's sake. Thankfully I'm off to Buttonwillow now to practice my offs so I'll just duck out of here....
As a Scrutineer for PCA, I can say that with only 1 video posted on Rennlist, you cannot determine all of the facts, from both sides. There are always external factors and the perception of one person might differ from anothers. The race Scrutineers go to great lenghts to find out the facts, look at data (if available) and identify 3rd party people who have video documentation of the incident. The Stewards review the facts and make a determination. I think these Rennlist discussions are simply a waste of time and in cases past just added unnecessary "fuel to the fire". I don't think you can make any concrete, factual determinations of what happened from the video posted.
09-12-2008, 10:05 AM
#57
Three Wheelin'
Geoffrey, and therein lies the problem. Too much variability in drivers. Some view it as a 90 minute sprint and others view it as a 90 minute marathon. Most should be viewing it somewhere in the middle. Remind me where they finished again. If this was a sprint, then I could understand, but an enduro? No way.
Awesome, looks like you just placed 6th in class because the other 5 guys you are racing with were running the race at sprint race pace and you are running it at an enduro pace.
Congrats!
09-12-2008, 10:07 AM
#58
Nordschleife Master
Even better and further strengthens the point of why incidents happen on lap 2 of an enduro.
And therein lies the problem. There's a difference (albeit small) between sprint pace and enduro pace and these incidents could be avoided.
So I placed 6th but you finished one lap with a damaged car. Who's the smart one now?
So I placed 6th but you finished one lap with a damaged car. Who's the smart one now?
09-12-2008, 10:08 AM
#59
Three Wheelin'
Thank you JR and Geoffrey! I can't believe the way people are jumping all over the 169 car based on this video. Given how much faster the 99 car is, the 169 driver is at least a 4 second a lap faster driver. (BTW, he's 4th in points in IMSA challenge. Not exactly a hack.) From my limited perspective the 169 car squeezed the 99 a bit going into one but left him plenty of room. No one would call that blocking on the first or second lap. Going into T5 the 169 car followed his normal line. Should he have seen the 99 and altered his line? Probably but it's not like he ran over an old lady in a crosswalk. The second hit was purely the 99 car over slowing and the 169 not being unable to adjust. Again, if you've driven a 997 cup into T5 at speed you know you don't have a lot of margin.
I've seen one of the involved cars purposely bump another car as we were forming up for the start of a sprint race, I won't say which one it was though.
09-12-2008, 10:18 AM
#60
Three Wheelin'
Even better and further strengthens the point of why incidents happen on lap 2 of an enduro.
And therein lies the problem. There's a difference (albeit small) between sprint pace and enduro pace and these incidents could be avoided.
So I placed 6th but you finished one lap with a damaged car. Who's the smart one now?
And therein lies the problem. There's a difference (albeit small) between sprint pace and enduro pace and these incidents could be avoided.
So I placed 6th but you finished one lap with a damaged car. Who's the smart one now?
You imply that all cars that run a sprint pace wreck in the second lap.
I'm with Jim B, 99 overslowed for the corner in an attempt to use his huge horsepower advantage to squirt away from 169.
Mifkin