Passing Etiquette - 4 points and 4 drag races
05-31-2008, 01:22 AM
#47
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Trust me, I would have been probably even more pissed off than you in a similar circumstance. Its easy to be the nice guy, watching and judging the tapes. Lets face it, when we are out there and the adrenaline is flowing, things like this create some pretty strong feelings. I watched it a few more times. Its actually pretty funny, almost like he was teasing you . You right , there is no excuse for that. maybe once on the wrong corner or straight, but 4 times, is pretty bad.
Mk
Mk
I dont disagree with much of what your saying. There is however one place where I think you're being too kind. The video is pretty clear that that the 993 broke quite early for the busstop and I got up to the doors on the inside, much as you suggest. Remember this was not an instructor group, this was a mixed group of "advanced" drivers. Given that context, theres no excuse for intermediate student, let alone an experienced instructor, in situ with god knows who around them (everything from fresh white drivers to seasoned club racers) to reaccelerate and take the corner with the other guy right next to you on the inside after just having given a third point. Forget completely that theres 3:41 seconds of other video around that moment, I simply can find nothing in those 10 seconds or so that could excuse that drivers actions. Sure, taken as a single clip out of context, you might say it was driver error, we all make mistakes. But, taken in context it, I think it shows something else.
If I were king, and I was presented with this sort of documentary evidence, I would instantly decree that this driver be stripped of their status and immediately busted back to blue (at best, in this case given how few apexes where threatened in the making of this film, more likely back to square one in green) and a block of wood 2.5 inches thick be bolted in place under their accelerator pedal. They'd get their status back only by proving they can actually manage traffic and go fast enough to get promoted with only 50% of their throttle available. I'm sure they'd bitch and moan and maybe never come back. But if they lived with it for a season or so, in the end, they'd thank me for it.
If I were king, and I was presented with this sort of documentary evidence, I would instantly decree that this driver be stripped of their status and immediately busted back to blue (at best, in this case given how few apexes where threatened in the making of this film, more likely back to square one in green) and a block of wood 2.5 inches thick be bolted in place under their accelerator pedal. They'd get their status back only by proving they can actually manage traffic and go fast enough to get promoted with only 50% of their throttle available. I'm sure they'd bitch and moan and maybe never come back. But if they lived with it for a season or so, in the end, they'd thank me for it.
05-31-2008, 09:08 AM
#48
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Yep...
Nice vid, Ron, but no surprise to me. I was laughing whilst simultaneously identifying. I've got some footage like that. How sad could it be to be in a 944NA and have the same problem with a GT3? Doesn't really matter the circumstance though, does it? It is hugely frustrating, and ALWAYS uncalled for.
Quite obviously, it is the DUTY of the passee to make sure it happens. "Earning a pass" in a DE is bullshirt. You earned it by CATCHING THEM! Anytime something like this happens, it needs to be reported, for you can bet you are not the only one being inpuned by such antics. It is your DUTY to your fellow drivers to make this problem known.
Now, you have to know or be able to judge the seriousness with which the person you report to is likely to take it. If you sense reluctance, press harder. You don't have to be rude, but you should make every effort to convey the seriousness of the offesne, and that you STRONGLY feel something should be done for the good of all.
At this point, it is unfortunately up to a volunteer that quite likely knows the offender. It is up to this volunteer to deal with it. You have to hope that the CI will take what you have offered and make the right moves.
The CI has to deal with this crap, and it takes a special individual to have enough courage to be the bad guy. If it's someone you know, you need all the more courage, and diplomacy. "Look, I'm talking as CI here, not friend. You need to trim up your ettiquette out there. We have complaints. Don't make me look bad. Clean up your act or I'll be forced to make some changes." That takes courage, but it MUST be done, NO MATTER WHO IT IS.
It should be so simple, eh? The lead car signals. The passer then pulls out, which should be the universal signal that they intend to take the pass. The lead car then (and only then) lifts if necessary to make it happen. The passer goes on by, and waves in thanks for a pass well given. It's SOOO simple!
It will take the sincere effort of EVERYONE to see that driving like this is corrected. Until it is taken SERIOUSLY by everyone, it will persist. I'm going to continue breathing, but with optimism.
Nice vid, Ron, but no surprise to me. I was laughing whilst simultaneously identifying. I've got some footage like that. How sad could it be to be in a 944NA and have the same problem with a GT3? Doesn't really matter the circumstance though, does it? It is hugely frustrating, and ALWAYS uncalled for.
Quite obviously, it is the DUTY of the passee to make sure it happens. "Earning a pass" in a DE is bullshirt. You earned it by CATCHING THEM! Anytime something like this happens, it needs to be reported, for you can bet you are not the only one being inpuned by such antics. It is your DUTY to your fellow drivers to make this problem known.
Now, you have to know or be able to judge the seriousness with which the person you report to is likely to take it. If you sense reluctance, press harder. You don't have to be rude, but you should make every effort to convey the seriousness of the offesne, and that you STRONGLY feel something should be done for the good of all.
At this point, it is unfortunately up to a volunteer that quite likely knows the offender. It is up to this volunteer to deal with it. You have to hope that the CI will take what you have offered and make the right moves.
The CI has to deal with this crap, and it takes a special individual to have enough courage to be the bad guy. If it's someone you know, you need all the more courage, and diplomacy. "Look, I'm talking as CI here, not friend. You need to trim up your ettiquette out there. We have complaints. Don't make me look bad. Clean up your act or I'll be forced to make some changes." That takes courage, but it MUST be done, NO MATTER WHO IT IS.
It should be so simple, eh? The lead car signals. The passer then pulls out, which should be the universal signal that they intend to take the pass. The lead car then (and only then) lifts if necessary to make it happen. The passer goes on by, and waves in thanks for a pass well given. It's SOOO simple!
It will take the sincere effort of EVERYONE to see that driving like this is corrected. Until it is taken SERIOUSLY by everyone, it will persist. I'm going to continue breathing, but with optimism.
05-31-2008, 10:55 AM
#49
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Hey John! How you been?!?
One of the first things the CI did at this event was repeat multiple times, 'I dont want to hear about passing or being held up, you got a complaint, tell it to uncle Bill'. That plus the fact that this was only the worse of many such hold-ups meant in the end I shrugged it off. While I knew this incident was over the line, I didnt really grock just how ugly it really was until I got home and got a chance to review the tape. There were so many complaints being lodged that first day, a fact that was brought out in the afternoon drivers meeting immediately preceding this session, I'm certain that even if I had thrown a tantrum it would have just gone in the trash bin with the others. In retrospect, and perhaps there is a good lesson here, if I get into a situation like this again, which is inevitable, I'll just calmly bring the camera to the CI and show 'em tape. That makes it far more difficult to ignore and certainly takes the personality out of it.
One of the first things the CI did at this event was repeat multiple times, 'I dont want to hear about passing or being held up, you got a complaint, tell it to uncle Bill'. That plus the fact that this was only the worse of many such hold-ups meant in the end I shrugged it off. While I knew this incident was over the line, I didnt really grock just how ugly it really was until I got home and got a chance to review the tape. There were so many complaints being lodged that first day, a fact that was brought out in the afternoon drivers meeting immediately preceding this session, I'm certain that even if I had thrown a tantrum it would have just gone in the trash bin with the others. In retrospect, and perhaps there is a good lesson here, if I get into a situation like this again, which is inevitable, I'll just calmly bring the camera to the CI and show 'em tape. That makes it far more difficult to ignore and certainly takes the personality out of it.
05-31-2008, 11:05 AM
#50
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Looking back over all the discussion I suppose I'm responsible for triggering, I do feel compelled to point out that this is just one single 3.5 minute period in 4 hours of driving. While there seems to be an increasing amount of this sort of behavior (well thats the negative explanation, the positive one is I'm getting so much faster that I just run into more of it 
), there are a ton of folks out there that are perfectly polite, drive well and do a great job of managing their mirrors. This is, thankfully, still the exception and not the rule.
), there are a ton of folks out there that are perfectly polite, drive well and do a great job of managing their mirrors. This is, thankfully, still the exception and not the rule.
05-31-2008, 02:00 PM
#51
Ironman 140.6
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Rjay, thank you for creating the video. 
Trust me, nobody in a faster car ever wants to be passed by a Boxster so I feel your pain.
I've lived the "point out the window/foot to the floor" senario your video shows more than a few times and it is very frustrating.
Trust me, nobody in a faster car ever wants to be passed by a Boxster so I feel your pain.
I've lived the "point out the window/foot to the floor" senario your video shows more than a few times and it is very frustrating.
05-31-2008, 02:23 PM
#52
Three Wheelin'
I got tagged once for "two off" in T1, but I wasn't 2 off at all - I just took an off-line late pass and used the white curbing purposely. So, I lost some time coming in to talk with Uncle Bill - same time penalty as if I just pitted in.
05-31-2008, 02:41 PM
#53
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Rick, I wasn't the only one to get black flagged for that - Uncle Bill had a conversation with the flaggers after a few of us got hit for that. When I beefed about it in the garage, a couple of others said "yah, some time they'll nail you for that..." This is the first time I've ever had it happen in years of enjoying The Glen and using that technique. My typical line takes me over the Apex curbing and into the TO curbing - so I didn't get why on that one late pass / drag race they pulled me in for using a little more of it than usual...
05-31-2008, 03:06 PM
#54
Nordschleife Master
I tell all of my students that there is always somebody faster in a slower car. Time in the seat. If I get caught by a slower car I would rather be following so that I can pick up some pointers by the faster driver.
05-31-2008, 03:48 PM
#55
Three Wheelin'
Ron, my opinion would be that the both sides of the white curbing are "track", and the pavement on the other side might be considered a "off" even though I've had to use that line after a late pass.
If there was grass there, it would be considered off.
If there was grass there, it would be considered off.
05-31-2008, 03:51 PM
#56
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As we already discussed in the C&S thread, black flagging someone for using all the T1 track out curbing is nuts.
05-31-2008, 05:07 PM
#57
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Last Monday/Tuesday they were not black flagging for getting up on top of both sides of the T-1 turtles, at least not a few times I was there after late passes. I also didn't see Uncle Bill in attendance.
05-31-2008, 06:24 PM
#58
Three Wheelin'
Bob
I agree that both sides of the turtles are track/pavement on the other side is an off. Same day Ron was black flagged for using the turtles, a friend was black flagged for a equipment problem. Flagger saw brake ducts under his car and thought he was losing part of his car.
I was there Wednesday and Thursday with Metro, and no Uncle Bill. Neither was he missed. As discussed previously, he has no affiliation with WGI
I agree that both sides of the turtles are track/pavement on the other side is an off. Same day Ron was black flagged for using the turtles, a friend was black flagged for a equipment problem. Flagger saw brake ducts under his car and thought he was losing part of his car.
I was there Wednesday and Thursday with Metro, and no Uncle Bill. Neither was he missed. As discussed previously, he has no affiliation with WGI
05-31-2008, 08:22 PM
#59
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I have a good one for you. In one of our races, (mixed classes , 50+ cars often) I was lapping a Mazda, i got a point by at a very tight portion of the Thunderhilll course, (think of aproach to the laguna corkscrew). experience should have told me to just back out and wait until the exit, but i was in a tight battle, protecting my lead, and through traffic is when most of our passes happen. So, i went for it, he didnt slow enough, it got real tight, and on the exit, i couldnt figure out why my car couldnt turn down the hill. Turns out, the "pointer by" didnt leave me enough room, and was plowing into the back of my 928. He lost control, went down the hill and caught fire. my car looked pretty bad with all the plastic bumper pushed i, but it was an easy fix. I felt bad because i probably could have waited one more turn, but it was the last lap of the race and it was a race! (and i did get a point by). The moral of the story is that if you are going to point someone by, the passer is going to trust that you can handle making it happen. To your point, its really unsafe to point someone by, see that they are trying to take the direction, (communicated by a strong pull out, and change of position ending up door to door , etc) and then not let it happen. That would have sucked to have taken the bait that 2nd point by, end up on the inside and then him punting you off track because you didnt give him enough "racing room".
mk
To your point
mk
To your point
05-31-2008, 09:20 PM
#60
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