Passing Etiquette - 4 points and 4 drag races
06-04-2008, 09:49 AM
#106
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06-04-2008, 01:58 PM
#107
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I'm all for giving someone the benifit of the doubt. I know of several situations where I have given a point by to a slower car and lifted yet they did not pull out to pass, so I assumed they did not want it and kept going.
This does not seem to be the case with this instance though. I don't see how the driver of the Yellow car did not know that RJay was trying to pass. The bus stop incident is a perfect example. He pulled right up along side her going into the bus stop. There is no way she could not have seen him as he was on her right side and she should have been looking right as she was turning right.
If you give someone a point by and they pull up to your doors, under what circumstances would lead you to think they had no intention of trying to make a pass?
RJay did try to talk to her afterwards with unsatisfactory results:
She pretty much blew it off like it was no big deal or like it was his responsibility to complete the safe pass on the straight, and that her only responsibility was to give the point by. This sort of attitude is dangerous in a DE enviornment. That is why it is a big deal and why it should not be tolerated in the upper run groups.
With required point by's, it is up to the car being passed to ensure a safe pass once they give the passing signal, by lifting off the throttle if neccessary and allowing the pass to be completed before the braking zone. This is stressed in every driver's meeting ("don't drag race the person down the straight"). Anyone who has attended enough DE events to get into the upper run groups should know this by now.
The only thing that would make this excusable is if passing was allowed in the turns (I don't think PCA allows this in DE, but there are serveral DE groups that do allow this in the advanced run groups) and the yellow car wanted to practice their racecraft by going 2 wide into the turns and she assumed the other car was onboard with this as well.
This does not seem to be the case with this instance though. I don't see how the driver of the Yellow car did not know that RJay was trying to pass. The bus stop incident is a perfect example. He pulled right up along side her going into the bus stop. There is no way she could not have seen him as he was on her right side and she should have been looking right as she was turning right.
If you give someone a point by and they pull up to your doors, under what circumstances would lead you to think they had no intention of trying to make a pass?
RJay did try to talk to her afterwards with unsatisfactory results:
+1.
Your welcome and thanks! While I considered talking to the stewards about it, I really didnt want to get into a pissing contest and given the whole tone of that event had gotten a little ugly, ultimately it felt like a waste of time to do so. And yes that person is indeed an instructor. I did, politely after calming down talked with them as it turned out they were paddocked less a 100 ft from me and were sharing the space with people I know pretty well. I didn't personally know the driver beforehand, but once I figured out who owned the car, I mentioned to this person,"Really nice car, you need to learn to lift a little after a point though." The reply was, "Oh what are you driving?" After pointing at my car the response was, "Oh yeah I gave you a point on the front straight."
That was the extent of our conversation. They simply had no clue just how close they came to a shunt. Unbelievable. I figured if they were that clueless, there was no point in discussing it further, particularly as I didnt want to get into it and force our mutual acquaintances to take sides.
Your welcome and thanks! While I considered talking to the stewards about it, I really didnt want to get into a pissing contest and given the whole tone of that event had gotten a little ugly, ultimately it felt like a waste of time to do so. And yes that person is indeed an instructor. I did, politely after calming down talked with them as it turned out they were paddocked less a 100 ft from me and were sharing the space with people I know pretty well. I didn't personally know the driver beforehand, but once I figured out who owned the car, I mentioned to this person,"Really nice car, you need to learn to lift a little after a point though." The reply was, "Oh what are you driving?" After pointing at my car the response was, "Oh yeah I gave you a point on the front straight."
That was the extent of our conversation. They simply had no clue just how close they came to a shunt. Unbelievable. I figured if they were that clueless, there was no point in discussing it further, particularly as I didnt want to get into it and force our mutual acquaintances to take sides.
She pretty much blew it off like it was no big deal or like it was his responsibility to complete the safe pass on the straight, and that her only responsibility was to give the point by. This sort of attitude is dangerous in a DE enviornment. That is why it is a big deal and why it should not be tolerated in the upper run groups.
With required point by's, it is up to the car being passed to ensure a safe pass once they give the passing signal, by lifting off the throttle if neccessary and allowing the pass to be completed before the braking zone. This is stressed in every driver's meeting ("don't drag race the person down the straight"). Anyone who has attended enough DE events to get into the upper run groups should know this by now.
The only thing that would make this excusable is if passing was allowed in the turns (I don't think PCA allows this in DE, but there are serveral DE groups that do allow this in the advanced run groups) and the yellow car wanted to practice their racecraft by going 2 wide into the turns and she assumed the other car was onboard with this as well.
06-04-2008, 02:08 PM
#108
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Pffff....
Going racing doesn't solve anything. That's like saying if you are tired of getting chopped, try DE. Going somewhere else is only avoidance of a problem. Regardless of whether it impacts you anymore, it is still there after you are gone.
In the larger scheme, it is not a huge problem. However, it may arguably be the biggest problem we have in the upper run groups. The rules, and the intent and spirit of those rules, are clear, and we are not generally dealing wth ignorant people. Just as blocking/chopping is a problem in the current racing climate, failure to pass properly is equally vexing in DE. Both can lead to bad situations.
One of the benefits of havng no power is that I don't get directly held up very often. The downside of that is that when I do, it is extremely aggravating. However, I have spent a fair amont of time toodling around behind a pack of "faster" cars as they sort themselves out. It is ironic - absurd even - but not exactly amusing, to have to lift, coast, and even brake for a pack of Cup cars when the track gets tighter and the lead car does not give it up in gentlemanly fashion.
If it were really that difficult to fix, I'd say just live with it. It should NOT be that difficult. The hard part is finding people willing to do the "dirty" work. The days of the attitude adjuster are not past.
I'll volunteer.
Going racing doesn't solve anything. That's like saying if you are tired of getting chopped, try DE. Going somewhere else is only avoidance of a problem. Regardless of whether it impacts you anymore, it is still there after you are gone.
In the larger scheme, it is not a huge problem. However, it may arguably be the biggest problem we have in the upper run groups. The rules, and the intent and spirit of those rules, are clear, and we are not generally dealing wth ignorant people. Just as blocking/chopping is a problem in the current racing climate, failure to pass properly is equally vexing in DE. Both can lead to bad situations.
One of the benefits of havng no power is that I don't get directly held up very often. The downside of that is that when I do, it is extremely aggravating. However, I have spent a fair amont of time toodling around behind a pack of "faster" cars as they sort themselves out. It is ironic - absurd even - but not exactly amusing, to have to lift, coast, and even brake for a pack of Cup cars when the track gets tighter and the lead car does not give it up in gentlemanly fashion.
If it were really that difficult to fix, I'd say just live with it. It should NOT be that difficult. The hard part is finding people willing to do the "dirty" work. The days of the attitude adjuster are not past.
I'll volunteer.
06-04-2008, 02:25 PM
#109
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Hey, to take this in a totally different direction..........anyone ever gone over for "the talk".........someone you've never met, and actually having a good conversation and maybe even making a track friend? Oddly, I can think of a couple of times it's happened when I used to travel around and be the stranger trying to fit in.
In some cases I go around the paddock before a race to meet some people. Usually the guys that get dinged for something and are starting behind me but MUCH faster. I give them a heads up that I understand they are faster and I'll be watching for them.
I brought it up in another thread but I go and talk to people where there really wasn't a bad situation but even a suspect one and will just try to figure out what they were thinking. It helps me the next time I come across them on the track.
Plus the bonus is at teh end of the day I often have a few more places to have a beer.
06-04-2008, 07:04 PM
#110
At the risk of getting shot down, I approach passing and being passed very differently than what many people post here. Perhaps it's a result of driving a relatively HP challenged car.
1) I don't lift for anybody. Or, to put it better, I don't lift until it's obvious that the car has less HP than my car and they aren't going to catch up. Someone who is driving better can usually make up a small HP difference with faster exit speed.
2) If the person gets close to catching me (usually those with much more HP blow by me easily) and we start to reach the braking zone, I'll brake early to help them past.
3) If there are 2 cars behind me that want to pass, I'll change my style appropriately. I.e. perhaps lift and brake earlier.
4) If someone gives me a pass signal, I'm going to take it. If this means I have to pass in the braking zone, so be it. If it appears that I can't get the pass done well before turn-in, then I'll back out of it.
Here's my thoughts about point #4: I drive in either instructor groups or with very advanced drivers/club racers. I expect them to be able to handle passing in braking zones and not be freaked out about it. Furthermore, if they are going to drag race me down the straight, I view that as an acknowledgement that they don't mind being passed in the braking zone, else they would have backed out of the throttle. If I know the driver, I know whether or not I can trust them in this regard. If not... well, I generally don't show up behind a car via magic, so I'll have at least a few turns of observing them to see if they can handle themselves. If tehy can't, I'm much less likely to try a late pass.
Basically, if people are whining about late passing and being scared about it, perhaps they are the ones who should adjust their driving styles by either moving down a group or lifting and letting cars by.
Now... if I were driving down in a lower run group, passing would be done much more "by the book". Then again, they would also be much more likely to lift.
1) I don't lift for anybody. Or, to put it better, I don't lift until it's obvious that the car has less HP than my car and they aren't going to catch up. Someone who is driving better can usually make up a small HP difference with faster exit speed.
2) If the person gets close to catching me (usually those with much more HP blow by me easily) and we start to reach the braking zone, I'll brake early to help them past.
3) If there are 2 cars behind me that want to pass, I'll change my style appropriately. I.e. perhaps lift and brake earlier.
4) If someone gives me a pass signal, I'm going to take it. If this means I have to pass in the braking zone, so be it. If it appears that I can't get the pass done well before turn-in, then I'll back out of it.
Here's my thoughts about point #4: I drive in either instructor groups or with very advanced drivers/club racers. I expect them to be able to handle passing in braking zones and not be freaked out about it. Furthermore, if they are going to drag race me down the straight, I view that as an acknowledgement that they don't mind being passed in the braking zone, else they would have backed out of the throttle. If I know the driver, I know whether or not I can trust them in this regard. If not... well, I generally don't show up behind a car via magic, so I'll have at least a few turns of observing them to see if they can handle themselves. If tehy can't, I'm much less likely to try a late pass.
Basically, if people are whining about late passing and being scared about it, perhaps they are the ones who should adjust their driving styles by either moving down a group or lifting and letting cars by.
Now... if I were driving down in a lower run group, passing would be done much more "by the book". Then again, they would also be much more likely to lift.
06-05-2008, 09:12 AM
#111
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Hey;
That all sounds pretty good to me, Brian. If someone in an upper group gives a signal and does not completely disappear afterwards, they should EXPECT to get passed in the braking zone. If I can keep up with them, they'd better, anyway.
One of the things I do with my students to hopefully prepare them for advanced driving is to get them to hold their inside line on later passes. Just like you would do if you were TAKING the turn from someone, in the student group you are making sure that other car has room to run (race) through the turn.
I do this right from the start, even at their first event. I don't discourage them from taking later passes nearing the braking zone. I use it as an opportunity to set more advanced technique in their minds early.
That all sounds pretty good to me, Brian. If someone in an upper group gives a signal and does not completely disappear afterwards, they should EXPECT to get passed in the braking zone. If I can keep up with them, they'd better, anyway.
One of the things I do with my students to hopefully prepare them for advanced driving is to get them to hold their inside line on later passes. Just like you would do if you were TAKING the turn from someone, in the student group you are making sure that other car has room to run (race) through the turn.
I do this right from the start, even at their first event. I don't discourage them from taking later passes nearing the braking zone. I use it as an opportunity to set more advanced technique in their minds early.
