Passing Etiquette - 4 points and 4 drag races
06-03-2008, 12:40 AM
#76
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Well, nearly this exact thing used to happen to me all the time at DEs. Typically once per DE, including in the upper run groups. It used to make me furious.
I ALWAYS went to talk to the drivers after it happened. Almost without exception, the answer was the same:
"If you had wanted the pass, why didn't you take it? I gave you point-bys multiple times, and you never took it, which made me think you didn't want it."
When I protested that I only had 147 hp at my disposal and my pedal was to the floor, they typically responded with:
"Oh, sorry, I thought you had a turbo."
Does it excuse the behavior? No. Does it make the behavior a little more understandable? Yes.
Best thing to do is forget about it and take it as a compliment that anyone could think you were driving something with a lot more HP than you have. Next time you likely will get the point-by.
I ALWAYS went to talk to the drivers after it happened. Almost without exception, the answer was the same:
"If you had wanted the pass, why didn't you take it? I gave you point-bys multiple times, and you never took it, which made me think you didn't want it."
When I protested that I only had 147 hp at my disposal and my pedal was to the floor, they typically responded with:
"Oh, sorry, I thought you had a turbo."
Does it excuse the behavior? No. Does it make the behavior a little more understandable? Yes.
Best thing to do is forget about it and take it as a compliment that anyone could think you were driving something with a lot more HP than you have. Next time you likely will get the point-by.
At this point, if you choose not to lift, your behavior is somewhere between playful and rude, is certainly understandable, and in some circumstances excusable, and sometimes amusing.
However by the time the end of the passing zone comes up, you had better have let the car behind pass you, for that is the offer you have extended, and which has been accepted.
I have not heard of any other definition of what a point by means. If something different is taught at Watkins Glen, then I'd like to know.
TD, I disagree with your conclusion. The best thing to do is have all drivers understand what a point by means, and have the same understanding.
We're not even discussing not offering passes.
Pointing and not lifting is understandable and we could all get over it.
Not fulfilling your obligation to let an offered, accepted pass happen is dangerous.
Michael
06-03-2008, 12:41 AM
#77
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Everbody makes mistakes, but three in a row is a little hard to swallow. This crap happens all the time (even in the upper run groups). Ego doesn't belong at a DE, if someone is behind you for several corners (and they were not there before) give 'em a point AND a lift...period (even if they are in a slower car and you don't think they should be faster).
End of soapbox rant..
.
06-03-2008, 07:32 AM
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Hey, we've all done it I'm sure, but not 4 times in 1 lap or even session. At Cups & Saucers, I passed a black 996 GT3 and was on my way - after a while I got stuck in traffic and saw the same GT3 behind me. I got through the traffic and he was still there, so I didn't point by because he wasn't applying pressure. I thought "wow, he really is pouring it on now..." and ultimately slowed to encourage the point because I wanted to follow to see his line from behind. Then the realization - it's not a GT3 any more, it changed into a race-modified 996 Turbo. I ended up finding the car in the garage (was near me) to apologize for holding him up for a lap and made a new friend in Greg P, Track Chair for JSR PCA. He said no apology was necessary as he wasn't looking to pass and found the whole "presto chango" story funny. It so happens he was trying to watch my line to see how it was a stock 997 was doing so well passing 996 GT3s 
06-03-2008, 07:37 AM
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06-03-2008, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by BostonDMD
I personally thought Colin was joking..... but I might be wrong.......
I had not considered that. Perhaps I'll give 38D the benefit of the doubt and congratulate him on the subtlety of his wit?
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Well put, Paton!
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Originally Posted by 931guru
I have a stock 83 944. When I give a point, I can floor it and nobody will notice.
06-03-2008, 07:57 AM
#82
I'll repeat. If you give a point, then you make an offer, to let the car behind be in front by the end of the passing zone. If your offer is accepted, you can tell by the car behind pulling out, and by the driver behind not waving off the pass. The offer need not be accepted. However in the case when it is (and I don't know who can reasonably be in doubt about this video), then with your point by, you now have some obligations.
At this point, if you choose not to lift, your behavior is somewhere between playful and rude, is certainly understandable, and in some circumstances excusable, and sometimes amusing.
However by the time the end of the passing zone comes up, you had better have let the car behind pass you, for that is the offer you have extended, and which has been accepted.
I have not heard of any other definition of what a point by means. If something different is taught at Watkins Glen, then I'd like to know.
TD, I disagree with your conclusion. The best thing to do is have all drivers understand what a point by means, and have the same understanding.
We're not even discussing not offering passes.
Pointing and not lifting is understandable and we could all get over it.
Not fulfilling your obligation to let an offered, accepted pass happen is dangerous.
Michael
At this point, if you choose not to lift, your behavior is somewhere between playful and rude, is certainly understandable, and in some circumstances excusable, and sometimes amusing.
However by the time the end of the passing zone comes up, you had better have let the car behind pass you, for that is the offer you have extended, and which has been accepted.
I have not heard of any other definition of what a point by means. If something different is taught at Watkins Glen, then I'd like to know.
TD, I disagree with your conclusion. The best thing to do is have all drivers understand what a point by means, and have the same understanding.
We're not even discussing not offering passes.
Pointing and not lifting is understandable and we could all get over it.
Not fulfilling your obligation to let an offered, accepted pass happen is dangerous.
Michael
I have no idea what you disagree with.
I didn't say their behavior was acceptable.
If you saw me getting out of the car after it happened to me, you would swear I was going to swing at the person when I saw them.
My point is that I calm down pretty quickly, and it was interesting to hear what people had to say.
Sometimes people do turn down passes. It happens.
I simply raised the possibility that the offending driver mistakenly misinterpreted the failure to accelerate (or at least perceived failure to accelerate) as DECLINING the pass. So THEY didn't think they were being rude or failing to uphold their responsibility. They thought (1) they were polite (i.e., gave the pass), (2) I was polite (i.e., turned down the pass) and all was green light to go again . . .
The problem gets worse if you start flipping them off after the second point by, which the driver takes as confirmation that you are trying to learn from them and declining the pass.
(and yes, this really happened to me once).In any event, based on my experiences at the track, this is EXACTLY what is going through the other person's mind when they give you multiple point bys but do not let you by: They mistakenly think you have been declining the pass.
So, of course the other driver was wrong.
But at least now you might understand how the person could make such a mistake without thinking they were screwing you over (still doesn't make it right).
As far as my conclusion goes, what else can you do as the driver who was victimized by the lack of awareness? You went by and talked with them, as politely as you can muster, asked that they not do it again, and then went on with your business. What more? Should you beat the crap out of them? Stick a screwdriver in their tires? Hold a grudge? No. We are all adults. You forgive and forget unless it happens again AFTER the conversation, at which point it is confirmed as a different type of problem.
But after the first time and you have the conversation, just take it as a compliment (assuming that's why they said they didn't lift) and move on. Taking it as a compliment is your best bet for getting over it without wanting to use your tow hook as a spear the next time you are out on the track.
It is a little annoying, though, how whenever someone makes a mistake all of the high and mighty come out of the woodwork to talk about how the person should be knocked back into Green or worse, even if that might ultimately be appropriate. And I am not aiming this comment at you or anybody in particular. It is just too easy to do on the Internet when we weren't there ourselves . . .
Last edited by TD in DC; 06-03-2008 at 08:25 AM.
06-03-2008, 08:32 AM
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Well....
Quite obviously, the finer points of passing need to be discussed in more detail at Driver's Meetings, or even in mandatory special classroom sessions, if the need arises.
- Giving a signal should indeed happen every time a car appears behind you. It should then further be accompanied by the obligation to see that this pass takes place in the allotted time, by whatever means necessary.
- The action of pulling out from behind the passee should be universally recognized as a signal of intent by the passer to take the pass offered. At this point, the obligation of the passee to allow the pass to take place kicks in.
- If you have caught another car for most any reason, you should expect and be given a pass. If you are given a pass "that you did not earn" because the car in front is also being held up by traffic, you should be able to discern this, and wave the pass off. This would be the sporting thing to do. If another subsequent signal is given, then you could reasonably assume the passee was serious about letting you by, and then you could procede.
- EVERY pass well given should be acknowledged by the passer with a friendly wave. This is the friendly handshake given at the conclusion of a successful transaction. If you are too physically or mentally busy to do this, you need to reassess your driving. We are not racing.
- One pass waved off should be not interpreted as meaning the passee NEVER wants to get by. I've had many ocassions where I've waved off a "non earned pass," then earned a pass later by my own efforts, and never been given the chance again.
- If you always signal, you will never have anything but friends.
Quite obviously, the finer points of passing need to be discussed in more detail at Driver's Meetings, or even in mandatory special classroom sessions, if the need arises.
- Giving a signal should indeed happen every time a car appears behind you. It should then further be accompanied by the obligation to see that this pass takes place in the allotted time, by whatever means necessary.
- The action of pulling out from behind the passee should be universally recognized as a signal of intent by the passer to take the pass offered. At this point, the obligation of the passee to allow the pass to take place kicks in.
- If you have caught another car for most any reason, you should expect and be given a pass. If you are given a pass "that you did not earn" because the car in front is also being held up by traffic, you should be able to discern this, and wave the pass off. This would be the sporting thing to do. If another subsequent signal is given, then you could reasonably assume the passee was serious about letting you by, and then you could procede.
- EVERY pass well given should be acknowledged by the passer with a friendly wave. This is the friendly handshake given at the conclusion of a successful transaction. If you are too physically or mentally busy to do this, you need to reassess your driving. We are not racing.
- One pass waved off should be not interpreted as meaning the passee NEVER wants to get by. I've had many ocassions where I've waved off a "non earned pass," then earned a pass later by my own efforts, and never been given the chance again.
- If you always signal, you will never have anything but friends.
06-03-2008, 09:37 AM
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06-03-2008, 09:45 AM
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06-03-2008, 10:02 AM
#87
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I'll repeat. If you give a point, then you make an offer, to let the car behind be in front by the end of the passing zone. If your offer is accepted, you can tell by the car behind pulling out, and by the driver behind not waving off the pass. The offer need not be accepted. However in the case when it is (and I don't know who can reasonably be in doubt about this video), then with your point by, you now have some obligations.
At this point, if you choose not to lift, your behavior is somewhere between playful and rude, is certainly understandable, and in some circumstances excusable, and sometimes amusing.
However by the time the end of the passing zone comes up, you had better have let the car behind pass you, for that is the offer you have extended, and which has been accepted.
I have not heard of any other definition of what a point by means. If something different is taught at Watkins Glen, then I'd like to know.
TD, I disagree with your conclusion. The best thing to do is have all drivers understand what a point by means, and have the same understanding.
We're not even discussing not offering passes.
Pointing and not lifting is understandable and we could all get over it.
Not fulfilling your obligation to let an offered, accepted pass happen is dangerous.
Michael
At this point, if you choose not to lift, your behavior is somewhere between playful and rude, is certainly understandable, and in some circumstances excusable, and sometimes amusing.
However by the time the end of the passing zone comes up, you had better have let the car behind pass you, for that is the offer you have extended, and which has been accepted.
I have not heard of any other definition of what a point by means. If something different is taught at Watkins Glen, then I'd like to know.
TD, I disagree with your conclusion. The best thing to do is have all drivers understand what a point by means, and have the same understanding.
We're not even discussing not offering passes.
Pointing and not lifting is understandable and we could all get over it.
Not fulfilling your obligation to let an offered, accepted pass happen is dangerous.
Michael
I've had a local instructor do the same to me. You more than likely know him. At least four points but never lifted. I even got the sign of "what, you don't want to pass". He screwed up sever times with me right on his *** and I had to really check up, but never did he give me a point at those occurrences. I only got them when he had a good exits. I had a rookie instructor in the car with me and I think I was starting to scare him, so I pulled in the pits and had a lively conversation with Joe.
After I calmed myself down, I decided to go have a conversation with him about it. His first comment to me was "how much horsepower do you have?" That was the end of the story and I blew up (in the hot pits with everyone around)...
TD, I know exactly what you were going through.
G.
06-03-2008, 10:06 AM
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G, I think we have ALL had that experience with that in-DUH-vidual. 
06-03-2008, 10:28 AM
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umhmm... I forgot this is America. I hate to add all the legalese necessary and the destroy the poetry and rhythm of initial remark, so just assume an asterisk on my previous comment.*- Valid passing signals only. Friendship offered in response comes with no explicit or implicit warranties and is redeemable for one session only. Cash value $0.01. Offer not valid in Canada.
06-03-2008, 10:40 AM
#90
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Redline Man wrote;
"No way no how can one characterize this as a mistake. The kindest that one could be would be to lable it an utter and preposterously extended lapse, no matter how good a friend it may be."
Would this individual happen to be a region's Registrar? I ask because I was at WGI last fall for the Zone 1 event, and there was a yellow 993 running in White that got so many comments from other drivers that they put an instructor in the car and bumped the driver down a group. Same profile.
Might be just a coincidence.
"No way no how can one characterize this as a mistake. The kindest that one could be would be to lable it an utter and preposterously extended lapse, no matter how good a friend it may be."
Would this individual happen to be a region's Registrar? I ask because I was at WGI last fall for the Zone 1 event, and there was a yellow 993 running in White that got so many comments from other drivers that they put an instructor in the car and bumped the driver down a group. Same profile.
Might be just a coincidence.