DrJupeman

Fixed it for ya.

Veloce Raptor

Friends help you move.

Real friends help you move bodies.

RedlineMan

Indeed;

Good point. If thy heart be true to the spirit and good intent of the transaction, then all will be well. In other words, if you follow the rules, you'll be rich with friends, and we all know that there is more to it than a simple gesture.

And no, it is not the person you are thinking, Herr Shultz.

mpaton

I disagree with your view that the best thing to do is to forget about it.

Agreed.

I always try to keep in mind that while instructors and racers are the most prolific posters, this is not a forum solely for such people. Newbie students are lurking here, hoping to learn. That being said, I find your interpretation most generous.

If this driver or any other driver thinks the pass was declined because the car did not immediately surge past, then it would appear they have been badly educated. I keep asking what is taught in the north east. TD, are you not a product of the instructors in that area? How have you been taught to decline a pass?

I submit that it is so dangerous to have the pass almost complete by the end of the passing zone, that drivers pointing MUST recognize their obligations. Failing to surge past must NOT be taken as a signal that the pass is declined.

In addition, if a driver chooses to not lift, then the whole passing zone may be used up in getting one car by, or not even getting one car by. We need our passing zones not to be wasted; as cars get faster, the time spent in a passing zone gets shorter.

As to what else you can do, you can decide for yourself if there is a systemic problem in DE passing procedures. If this is not an isolated incident, then it seems to me that there is a problem. I believe Redlineman believes there is, and he's way more familiar with the local procedures and habits than I am.

I believe that if you consider what is required to accomplish a pass in a DE environment, I think you will agree that the mistakes you hypothesize are too dangerous to be allowed to continue.

I don't feel aimed at, but I stand by what I have said. The only mistake I see is that "the system" has allowed this driver to have a misguided view of how a pass may be declined. The BIG mistake will come if an instructor passes on that misguided view to their students.



Michael

TD in DC

I am not sure you understand what I am saying. I said that after that happens to me, the first thing I do is go and talk to the driver. This has always straightened out the problem for me. I also said that if it did not straighten out the problem, that would indicate a much bigger problem, which I did NOT advocate forgetting. I didn't address that issue. My point was that after you have a discussion with someone, and this is their explanation, there is not much else to do at that point. Might as well take it as a compliment that they could think you had so much HP when you have nothing so that you do not harbor ill will. Ill will helps nobody.

Again, I am not sure what more to discuss. What the driver did was wrong. Period. I didn't even think that was up for discussion. Here, if you want to wave off a pass, you hold up your right hand and wave it back and forth inside the car.

And don't think this behavior doesn't **** me off. Here is what I feel like doing when I am the victim:



As satisfying as that would be, I know this is just a DE and that people make mistakes. I owe it to them to give them the benefit of the doubt, talk to them as politely as I can muster once, and if they do it again, then I can assume it is intentional or incredible incompetence.

But nobody is arguing that what the driver did was ok.


Again, who said anything about allowing mistakes to continue? I certainly didn't. I don't understand how you can get that from my post. This problem makes me FURIOUS, and I am frequently (once per weekend) a victim.

I always think reeducation is a good idea. That said, this problem happens with about 2-5% of the drivers. So why waste everyone's time to correct the bad apples? Why not black flag those drivers and get them right at the moment? THAT would be more effective IMHO than a class room session two days later. Hell, the persons doing this don't even think they are doing anything wrong or they wouldn't do it in the first place. They need to be corrected immediately . . . not hours later. Why should I have to pit in to cool off? Black flag their asses and make them talk to the CI right then and there. Make them lose some track time.


The system will never eliminate errors. My point was that it is very easy to make online conversations go too personal and make a driver who is otherwise excellent seem like an idiot for a limited lapse of judgment. I am NOT saying that is the case here. I am just saying that people should remember that real people are involved, and they should act the same way on-line as they would face-to-face. Again, this isn't directed at you or anyone in particular (nor is it directed at RJ ).

Scootin159

As a "product of the system in the north east".... stay on line (i.e. inline behind the car ahead), and wave off the pass.

As an aside, how late is "too late" to take a pass? In the green run groups I don't like anything I can't complete in the first 2/3 of the 'passing zone', if for nothing else than I don't want to make the other driver feel 'uncomfortable'.

In the white group however there were a couple passes I took which ended up being late enough to make me wonder (I took an inside line, but there wasn't any drama as the pass was completed before turn-in). In particular I'm thinking of one I did in the mini-straight between turns 8 & 9 at WGI... I was given the point by right at track out of 8, and the car immediately pulled over to the right. My momentum actually carried me right up to side-by-side (I never had to lift coming out of the corner), but once the considerably more powerful car got on the gas, I wasn't able to complete the pass. They finally lifted (or braked early) just before turn-in, so I was able to be ahead of them going into the apex, but there was no more than 1/2 a car length between my rear and their nose.

Given this case, should I have lifted (or even braked) to 'give up' on the pass? At what point? Seems to me this would actually be WORSE, as they are expecting me to go in front of them.

Bull

TD, being TD in DC, is certainly not in the Northeast. Don't blame us for him!

My experience is that with regard to PCA, what is taught in the "Northeast" is no different than what is taught in any other part of the country, although my experience only covers the Northwest, Northeast and some of the Southeast. That makes sense to me as it is a National program, but implemented locally.

In the Northeast, there are at least 15 PCA Regions, each with their own DE program. I run with several of them and the basics all seem the same to me. Sometimes it really is the individual's problem, not the system.

BTW, to your question earlier of "what do they teach at Watkins Glen"...actually depends who who is sanctioning the event at The Glen.

TD in DC

I bet that has been said about more DC residents than the residents of anywhere else . . .

RedlineMan

Hey;

What is being taught is no different. The differences likely come from A) a huge saturation of drivers and events in the Northeast. Higher numbers offer higher numbers of incidences. B) More egotisitical people that think the rules apply to everyone else.

There can be MANY reasons for people not understanding how to pass correctly, or choosing not to. In the end, there will be no change until someone in charge takes it seriously as a problem, and if there continues to be no consequence to the instigator.

RedlineMan

Hey;

You need to be REALLY careful about doing this in the lower groups. Are you sure of what that other driver will do? What they are capable of. What YOU are capable of? So too do you need to pick your spots carefully. The Off Camber is not a turn that offers great rewards to off line drivers.

I would say that if you are not at least even with them by the base of the hill, you might think about backing away. There will be nothing lost of they get squeemish and back way off. You will both just be really slow. To take a guess and assume they are going to give it up for you, and that you can handle being so far off line in that turn, is a bit risky.

All in good time, my son.

38D

Btw, I wasn't joking. I don't see why we need to crucify this person. It was a DE. Everyone is getting worked up about not passing someone. I suggest if you are that worried about it you should go racing, so you can pass anywhere. Or just pit if you get stuck behind someone. I do agree that the situation awareness of the driver was not good, but I'm not sure a multi-page forum thread is really the answer. Just man up and go talk to the other driver (who is a woman btw) and tell her you'd appreciate a lift when she signals.

Veloce Raptor

Colin, I don't think that is why folks are a bit workd up. Rather, it is because an instructor--who whould know better & who is setting an example for all his/her students each weekend they instruct--was pretty much clueless not once, not twice, but 3 times.

RJay

RJay

Which, just for the record, is exactly what I did, as you might have read a few pages back. What I didnt do is get into an argument about it or report it to a CI that seemed totally disinterested.

38D

Totally agree with that.


Ok, good move then! Hopefully she was receptive to the comments (maybe showing the video would have helped).