Instructor Crashes Student's Car
01-10-2008, 10:48 AM
#1
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Thread Starter
Instructor Crashes Student's Car
{This is MINDY, not Marc}
By this time you all should know what I mean...
I closed the thread because "hire an attorney and close the thread" was not really the feedback that I was looking for. My post is both a warning and a solicitation about practical things to do. I know that many of us on this board are instructors who come across PAUL WILSON while instructing for groups other than PCA -- i.e. NASA, Chin, BMW etc. (Paul Wilson is from MA and drives a Noble belonging to Roger Cassin.)
Maybe you do not want to be on the same track, in your or your student's car, with this man?
Maybe you want to mention the name Paul Wilson to check if he will be instructing and/or driving when you sign up for an event?
Maybe we should suggest to organizations that Paul Wilson not be welcomed on a track with us, let alone comped track time for his instructional services?
Maybe the people on the Noble board (http://www.nobleforums.com) would like to hear from several of us so they take my warning seriously?
Maybe someone here knows Paul Wilson and can suggest to him that he is receiving bad advice and simply should pay the repair invoice?
I would like nothing more than to be extolling the great honor of a man that I met through an unfortunate incident instead of trying to rid the track of a(n) __________ (you can fill in this blank).
{This is MINDY, not Marc}
By this time you all should know what I mean...
I closed the thread because "hire an attorney and close the thread" was not really the feedback that I was looking for. My post is both a warning and a solicitation about practical things to do. I know that many of us on this board are instructors who come across PAUL WILSON while instructing for groups other than PCA -- i.e. NASA, Chin, BMW etc. (Paul Wilson is from MA and drives a Noble belonging to Roger Cassin.)
Maybe you do not want to be on the same track, in your or your student's car, with this man?
Maybe you want to mention the name Paul Wilson to check if he will be instructing and/or driving when you sign up for an event?
Maybe we should suggest to organizations that Paul Wilson not be welcomed on a track with us, let alone comped track time for his instructional services?
Maybe the people on the Noble board (http://www.nobleforums.com) would like to hear from several of us so they take my warning seriously?
Maybe someone here knows Paul Wilson and can suggest to him that he is receiving bad advice and simply should pay the repair invoice?
I would like nothing more than to be extolling the great honor of a man that I met through an unfortunate incident instead of trying to rid the track of a(n) __________ (you can fill in this blank).
{This is MINDY, not Marc}
01-10-2008, 11:04 AM
#4
Team Owner
You should NOT NAME NAMES if you are in or are about to get in to litigation. You can be charged (rightly or wrongly) with libel & defamation.
Get some common sense, and handle it privately.
Get some common sense, and handle it privately.
01-10-2008, 12:37 PM
#5
GT3 Track Junkie
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I think you should take it offline. Im always very aware of the risk (it's a racetrack afterall) that anytime i have an instructor or friend drive my car that I've signed away any claims that I have against him for damage to the car unless I have a prior arrangement with the driver.
Warning to eveyone - dont have your instructor or friend drive your car unless your prepared to walk away from it or have discussed the potential of an accident and liability.
Warning to eveyone - dont have your instructor or friend drive your car unless your prepared to walk away from it or have discussed the potential of an accident and liability.
01-10-2008, 12:45 PM
#6
Rennlist Member
With all due respect, I think Mindy has taken the issue offline and has failed to reach a resolution. This matter is not in litigation, and given the dollars involved and the other party's apparent inabliity to pay, is not a good candidate for litigation. Mindy's only hope is that pressure from Rennlisters and others encourages the fellow to offer some cash.
A clearer understanding of who pays for damage before the drive might have helped Mindy, but from what she has written the driver first acknowledged responsibility but later declined to pay. Even a written agreement probably would not have helped as enforcing it in court is not a trivial or inexpensive undertaking, provided the driver even has the ability to pay.
Sad situation.
A clearer understanding of who pays for damage before the drive might have helped Mindy, but from what she has written the driver first acknowledged responsibility but later declined to pay. Even a written agreement probably would not have helped as enforcing it in court is not a trivial or inexpensive undertaking, provided the driver even has the ability to pay.
Sad situation.
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01-10-2008, 01:44 PM
#8
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Hmmmm.... Forgive me if I go off topic, but these points - I hope - are quite salient to the larger theme;
This entire matter is exceedingly unfortunate. Perhaps most unsettling to me is the fact that a fine organization like Trackmasters is potentially ensnared in this. They run a very high quality program, and I have been happy to instruct for them. However, it just goes to show that this game is very unpredictable, and things can all go wrong despite your best efforts.
I can think of some other mistakes that were made here. I think it is important to delineate the difference between an instructional ride, an equipment evaluation, and a joy ride. Who knew this guy? Who deemed him worthy of this "opportunity?" What was the understanding and the agenda... if any?
An instructional ride given by an instructor in a student's car should NEVER include ANY POSSIBILITY of loss of control. That is utterly and irrevocably uncalled for. That is NOT what the lesson should be, quite obviously.
Said instructional ride needs to be delineated further. Is it for positional or dynamic reasons? If the former, then the previous set of rules apply. Take NO chance of losing control. You can show them proper track position and move at a decent clip without EVER coming close to the limit. If it is to be a dynmaic lesson, i.e. "this is how it will or should feel, and what will take place." then it should be done IN THE INSTRUCTORS CAR.
If it is a shakedown or performance evaluation run, it needs to be understood right up front that shirt happens and the driver is not responsible. I would think it also encumbent upon the car owner to well know and trust the driver.
Nobody I don't know well, and trust, will ever drive my car. I don't give a damn WHO says they are awesome.
Just thinking out loud.
This entire matter is exceedingly unfortunate. Perhaps most unsettling to me is the fact that a fine organization like Trackmasters is potentially ensnared in this. They run a very high quality program, and I have been happy to instruct for them. However, it just goes to show that this game is very unpredictable, and things can all go wrong despite your best efforts.
I can think of some other mistakes that were made here. I think it is important to delineate the difference between an instructional ride, an equipment evaluation, and a joy ride. Who knew this guy? Who deemed him worthy of this "opportunity?" What was the understanding and the agenda... if any?
An instructional ride given by an instructor in a student's car should NEVER include ANY POSSIBILITY of loss of control. That is utterly and irrevocably uncalled for. That is NOT what the lesson should be, quite obviously.
Said instructional ride needs to be delineated further. Is it for positional or dynamic reasons? If the former, then the previous set of rules apply. Take NO chance of losing control. You can show them proper track position and move at a decent clip without EVER coming close to the limit. If it is to be a dynmaic lesson, i.e. "this is how it will or should feel, and what will take place." then it should be done IN THE INSTRUCTORS CAR.
If it is a shakedown or performance evaluation run, it needs to be understood right up front that shirt happens and the driver is not responsible. I would think it also encumbent upon the car owner to well know and trust the driver.
Nobody I don't know well, and trust, will ever drive my car. I don't give a damn WHO says they are awesome.
Just thinking out loud.
01-10-2008, 02:12 PM
#9
Rennlist Member
{This is MINDY, not Marc}
By this time you all should know what I mean...
I closed the thread because "hire an attorney and close the thread" was not really the feedback that I was looking for. My post is both a warning and a solicitation about practical things to do. I know that many of us on this board are instructors who come across PAUL WILSON while instructing for groups other than PCA -- i.e. NASA, Chin, BMW etc. (Paul Wilson is from MA and drives a Noble belonging to Roger Cassin.)
Maybe you do not want to be on the same track, in your or your student's car, with this man?
Maybe you want to mention the name Paul Wilson to check if he will be instructing and/or driving when you sign up for an event?
Maybe we should suggest to organizations that Paul Wilson not be welcomed on a track with us, let alone comped track time for his instructional services?
Maybe the people on the Noble board (http://www.nobleforums.com) would like to hear from several of us so they take my warning seriously?
Maybe someone here knows Paul Wilson and can suggest to him that he is receiving bad advice and simply should pay the repair invoice?
I would like nothing more than to be extolling the great honor of a man that I met through an unfortunate incident instead of trying to rid the track of a(n) __________ (you can fill in this blank).
{This is MINDY, not Marc}
By this time you all should know what I mean...
I closed the thread because "hire an attorney and close the thread" was not really the feedback that I was looking for. My post is both a warning and a solicitation about practical things to do. I know that many of us on this board are instructors who come across PAUL WILSON while instructing for groups other than PCA -- i.e. NASA, Chin, BMW etc. (Paul Wilson is from MA and drives a Noble belonging to Roger Cassin.)
Maybe you do not want to be on the same track, in your or your student's car, with this man?
Maybe you want to mention the name Paul Wilson to check if he will be instructing and/or driving when you sign up for an event?
Maybe we should suggest to organizations that Paul Wilson not be welcomed on a track with us, let alone comped track time for his instructional services?
Maybe the people on the Noble board (http://www.nobleforums.com) would like to hear from several of us so they take my warning seriously?
Maybe someone here knows Paul Wilson and can suggest to him that he is receiving bad advice and simply should pay the repair invoice?
I would like nothing more than to be extolling the great honor of a man that I met through an unfortunate incident instead of trying to rid the track of a(n) __________ (you can fill in this blank).
{This is MINDY, not Marc}
also from your last thread and you experience list. why did you have an instructor?
01-10-2008, 02:14 PM
#10
Rennlist Member
Hmmmm.... Forgive me if I go off topic, but these points - I hope - are quite salient to the larger theme;
This entire matter is exceedingly unfortunate. Perhaps most unsettling to me is the fact that a fine organization like Trackmasters is potentially ensnared in this. They run a very high quality program, and I have been happy to instruct for them. However, it just goes to show that this game is very unpredictable, and things can all go wrong despite your best efforts.
I can think of some other mistakes that were made here. I think it is important to delineate the difference between an instructional ride, an equipment evaluation, and a joy ride. Who knew this guy? Who deemed him worthy of this "opportunity?" What was the understanding and the agenda... if any?
An instructional ride given by an instructor in a student's car should NEVER include ANY POSSIBILITY of loss of control. That is utterly and irrevocably uncalled for. That is NOT what the lesson should be, quite obviously.
Said instructional ride needs to be delineated further. Is it for positional or dynamic reasons? If the former, then the previous set of rules apply. Take NO chance of losing control. You can show them proper track position and move at a decent clip without EVER coming close to the limit. If it is to be a dynmaic lesson, i.e. "this is how it will or should feel, and what will take place." then it should be done IN THE INSTRUCTORS CAR.
If it is a shakedown or performance evaluation run, it needs to be understood right up front that shirt happens and the driver is not responsible. I would think it also encumbent upon the car owner to well know and trust the driver.
Nobody I don't know well, and trust, will ever drive my car. I don't give a damn WHO says they are awesome.
Just thinking out loud.
This entire matter is exceedingly unfortunate. Perhaps most unsettling to me is the fact that a fine organization like Trackmasters is potentially ensnared in this. They run a very high quality program, and I have been happy to instruct for them. However, it just goes to show that this game is very unpredictable, and things can all go wrong despite your best efforts.
I can think of some other mistakes that were made here. I think it is important to delineate the difference between an instructional ride, an equipment evaluation, and a joy ride. Who knew this guy? Who deemed him worthy of this "opportunity?" What was the understanding and the agenda... if any?
An instructional ride given by an instructor in a student's car should NEVER include ANY POSSIBILITY of loss of control. That is utterly and irrevocably uncalled for. That is NOT what the lesson should be, quite obviously.
Said instructional ride needs to be delineated further. Is it for positional or dynamic reasons? If the former, then the previous set of rules apply. Take NO chance of losing control. You can show them proper track position and move at a decent clip without EVER coming close to the limit. If it is to be a dynmaic lesson, i.e. "this is how it will or should feel, and what will take place." then it should be done IN THE INSTRUCTORS CAR.
If it is a shakedown or performance evaluation run, it needs to be understood right up front that shirt happens and the driver is not responsible. I would think it also encumbent upon the car owner to well know and trust the driver.
Nobody I don't know well, and trust, will ever drive my car. I don't give a damn WHO says they are awesome.
Just thinking out loud.
well put John, and I am sure how most of us feel about it. Not much else to say.
01-10-2008, 02:28 PM
#11
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Not an attorney but I believe you have to show losses due to statements made in order to be liable for libel or defimantion. Doesnt appear that will be the case. I am certain there are more than on attornies on this board.
I am assuming this guy crashed her car?? Didnt see the first thread.
I am assuming this guy crashed her car?? Didnt see the first thread.
01-10-2008, 02:36 PM
#12
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Mindy, everyone here feels for your situation. It appears you have gotten to point that you feel there is no other recourse than to lash out at the person who did this. Totally understandable. We all can visualize ourselves in this predicament.
However the path you are taking is really not the one you want to take. After a five minute search I was able to read the threads you have posted on another forum and your tone there has riled many people there. It may seem at this point you have no other recourse but you must understand that when you post on the internet it is in cyberspace forever. You can't take things back later. I am only trying to get through to you to think about this rationally and not emotionally.
That is my meager .02 worth.
However the path you are taking is really not the one you want to take. After a five minute search I was able to read the threads you have posted on another forum and your tone there has riled many people there. It may seem at this point you have no other recourse but you must understand that when you post on the internet it is in cyberspace forever. You can't take things back later. I am only trying to get through to you to think about this rationally and not emotionally.
That is my meager .02 worth.
01-10-2008, 02:56 PM
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"Instructor" drives students car and crashes it while being irresponsible.
"Instructor" first says he will make it right, i.e. pay for the damage.
"Instructor" then hides behind attorney because he either changes his mind, can't afford repairs, feels that since he does not have a legal obligation, then he's off the hook.
Warning folks that this person did something bad, reversed a prior agreement, and now has engaged an attorney is pretty fair game to post on the internet.
Folks that might encounter this "instructor" probably have a right to know that he has driven and wrecked a students car. Does a person like this get to continue to instruct? How about continue to ask to drive student cars? Is it fair to ask an event organizer if they would employ this person? I think so.
There's a strange relationship between event promoters and instructors - esp when it comes to being comp'd track time. They are acting as an agent of the promoter, they are being "paid", etc.
Luckily this was only a destruction or property - but what if someone had gotten hurt?
There's lots to think about here - with instructors, driving other folks' cars, riding with other folks, etc. and it's a good thing for Mindy to bring this forward so that we can all head into our hobbies just a little more aware of what can go wrong, when things go wrong.
I wold recommend keeping comments as businesslike and factual as possible, to avoid inflaming folks and lessening all your good points.
"Instructor" first says he will make it right, i.e. pay for the damage.
"Instructor" then hides behind attorney because he either changes his mind, can't afford repairs, feels that since he does not have a legal obligation, then he's off the hook.
Warning folks that this person did something bad, reversed a prior agreement, and now has engaged an attorney is pretty fair game to post on the internet.
Folks that might encounter this "instructor" probably have a right to know that he has driven and wrecked a students car. Does a person like this get to continue to instruct? How about continue to ask to drive student cars? Is it fair to ask an event organizer if they would employ this person? I think so.
There's a strange relationship between event promoters and instructors - esp when it comes to being comp'd track time. They are acting as an agent of the promoter, they are being "paid", etc.
Luckily this was only a destruction or property - but what if someone had gotten hurt?
There's lots to think about here - with instructors, driving other folks' cars, riding with other folks, etc. and it's a good thing for Mindy to bring this forward so that we can all head into our hobbies just a little more aware of what can go wrong, when things go wrong.
I wold recommend keeping comments as businesslike and factual as possible, to avoid inflaming folks and lessening all your good points.
01-10-2008, 03:02 PM
#14
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I think the main point that I hear being made is that it may not be in Mindy's best interest to post these statements. However, I don't have any legal background to offer any advice one way or the other.
01-10-2008, 03:37 PM
#15
Nordschleife Master
The loss sucks but this is the very reason I would NEVER NEVER NEVER (did I say never?) drive a students car. Under NO circumstances. On the flip side, NOBODY will drive my car unless I know they are willing to write a check for any damage (my wife, my close friends, and that's it....NEVER a stranger).
There is an inherent risk on the track and a poor decision was made to allow the instructor to drive the car. He's an *** clown at best and deserves a tiny place in hell with the rest of the chicken **** scum that duck responsibility. With that said though he has ZERO legal obligation to pay for the damage unless that was expressed between the two parties when the drive started. To assume that an instructor is on the hook for damage without prior verification is not good enough.....this is where the whole "ignorance of the rules isn't a valid defense" comes into play.
I'd pay for the damages if it was me personally but that is the admirable and "right" thing to do but NOT required.
I'll pose the following question......would your financial situation keep you from repairing the car if it was YOU that wrecked it? If you answer yes, then you made a mistake by taking a car to the track that you couldn't afford to damage. Running on borrowed time is all.
You live and learn and move on.
There is an inherent risk on the track and a poor decision was made to allow the instructor to drive the car. He's an *** clown at best and deserves a tiny place in hell with the rest of the chicken **** scum that duck responsibility. With that said though he has ZERO legal obligation to pay for the damage unless that was expressed between the two parties when the drive started. To assume that an instructor is on the hook for damage without prior verification is not good enough.....this is where the whole "ignorance of the rules isn't a valid defense" comes into play.
I'd pay for the damages if it was me personally but that is the admirable and "right" thing to do but NOT required.
I'll pose the following question......would your financial situation keep you from repairing the car if it was YOU that wrecked it? If you answer yes, then you made a mistake by taking a car to the track that you couldn't afford to damage. Running on borrowed time is all.
You live and learn and move on.