John H

I respectfully disagree. I interpret his actions which directly led to the collision as reckless. He was not operating the car in any manner consistent with what a reasonable person would expect. If he were merely negligent then I would agree he has no legal obligation to repair the car. From what I remember of the post, his actions were more than mere negligence. I don't think it is fair to say Mindy assumed the risk of this "instructor" operating the car (wildly swerving to make the tires squeal) in the manner he did. I think she rightly assumed this guy had a clue as to what he was doing.

DaveM993

What Dell said. Unless gross negligence can be proven, the waiver's are pretty clear. If he can be held legally responsible, then our little hobby may go by the wayside. His refusal to pay is wrong morally. NO QUESTION.

The only option is to sue.

In the end though, instuctor's should not drive student's cars.

LVDell

Only 2 people were in that car...Mindy and the *** clown "instructor".

Only those 2 people know EXACTLY what happened.

Only 1 of those people have told their side of the story.

Only 1 person had a legal and financial obligation to that car unless there is some legal document stating otherwise.

We move on........

Bill L Seifert

Dell is 100% right. Advice--- Never let anyone drive your car, unless you don't mind losing it, or you have an ironclad agreement as to how it will be fixed.

I have had a hundred students ask me to drive their car. NEVER WILL!

Bill Seifert

1987 944S Race Car

Phokaioglaukos

No such thing. When others drive our cars we rely on insurance (maybe) and the character of the driver. It's a risk I have taken several times and will take again, but after careful consideration.

John D.

(Disclaimer - this is my personal opinion, NOT POSTED as the Rennlist Admin...)..

I agree with Dell 110% - BUT.........

Remember being a "student" at your DE events? Instructor=GOD... By virtue of them being an "Instructor", it's normal to presume they are responsible individuals - I mean, you are entrusting them, no matter which side of the car you sit on... Anyway - as a student many years ago - I remember at a "3rd Party Event" (not-PCA) an Instructor asked to drive my car to get a "feeling for the track" (he was my assigned instructor for the day). Not knowing then - what I know now, years later - I said "OK", as he was driving it in the "beginners" run group.. Silly me....

Why we didn't go off is beyond me - and I remember, asking after that session to one of the event organizers if a student has to let an instructor drive their car. He looked at me funny and asked "Why?".. "Just asking" I said..

So - even to the new folks reading this thread - Dell and Bill I think are "right on".. You are under no obligation to say "Sure - you can drive my car.." In fact - while you may feel uncomfortable saying "Not now" or something - it is your car.....

Since those days - I've been an instructor for years... If a student wants me to drive to show them the line or whatever - it's in my car (NOT theirs) in either their run group or one up from their run group (if they are moving up a group..).

Mindy - you have a PM from me from earlier today..

John

KOAN

I used to drive my student's cars at every opportunity. Never 10/10, but it was fun to feel the dynamics and braking, steering, etc. of other marques. It also helped me instruct them, and to understand what they were dealing with. Obviously it was always done with the students consent and with the student in the car, with the proviso that if the student were uncomfortable with anything that was going on, that he/she should speak up immediately. This never happened, BTW.
I was instructing a good friend and driving his 944t, which I had helped him purchase, at 5/10, at a track I know very well. I had just let a string of cars pass, and the car I was driving lost braking and went off the track at about 50 mph. I was able to get it turned in the sand so that I was driving parallel to the tire wall ( I could have touched it), and get back on track. I was really shaken up. My friend/student said," I wasn't worried, I knew you weren't in trouble."
I went back to the scene of the crime, and saw 20-30 ft. of black rubber from locked brakes (no abs) and old hoosiers on the car. The incident was entirely my fault. The car, as it was prepared, just surprised me, even though I thought I was well within my comfort zone. I certainly would have paid for any damage, including to my own clothing ;-( . I do not drive students cars any more, or if I do, on rare occasion, I assume responsibility.

Jewels

My vote goes for Dell & John D.
After decades of instruction I always decline on offer to drive a students car.
Track- Quest used to ask us to take our students cars around several laps to "show them the line" if we feel comfortable doing so....never (even though there was one Lotus that I was dying to drive) .
Mindy we all feel for you. Is this the correct forum, I don't think so.
Good Luck

A930Rocket

I don't care what the rules are. NO instructor would drive my car to get the feel of it. They can get a feel for it in the passenger seat. If they don't like that, I'd get another instructor.

Of course, I haven't have an instructor in 10 years...

DaveM993

Our Region specifically forbids instructors driving student's cars. We take the decision making process out of the hands of the student...and the instructor. Although it does remove the opportunity for an enhanced learning opportunity for the student, IMHO it is a no brainer because:

1) In most cases the student and instructor do not have a mutual understanding as to responsibility...which is likely not enforceable even if there was.

2) Most cars are not insured for collision damage on a track

3) Student's can feel pressure, even from an instructor who has absolutely no intention to apply any in suggesting some familiarization laps would be helpful in the student's car. As John D. pointed out, student's may not listen if that little voice in the back of the head is saying "not a good idea"...ESPECIALLY BEGINNERS.

4) Tracking a car is an inherently risky endeavor (albeit low) whose impact is compounded by #2 above.

Veloce Raptor

Lawsuits for libel & defamation can be filed regardless of how justifiable. And then Mindy would have to spend tens of thousands of $$ on attorneys fees just to defend herself.

The fact that the other side has already lawyered up should be a red flag to not tempt a libel or defamation lawsuit. Frankly, I am a bit astonished at the relative lack of common sense evident in some parts of this thread.

jester911

^^^Ditto^^^

Janni

He lawyered up with a RE attorney, if I am not mistaken. I'd take my chances. And I stand by my assertion that truth is a good defense.

My first instructor said "I have no desire to drive your car, you can ride with me. I know my own car, so you ought to see me in a car I am comfortable with." That stuck with me. Other instructors have had same / similar cars, so that exchange wasn't even addressed, since they knew a like vehicle.

Overall - I think it's a bad idea. It DOES complicate things when an instructor either a) doesn't have a car or b) has a car without a passenger seat and I can see where there might be subtle pressure - but it's a bad idea.

Veloce Raptor

The truth is a good defense...but meanwhile get ready to spend thousand$$$$$$$$ to get to that point.

Wise up, bro.

Phokaioglaukos

Litigation is not a one-party expense. A RE lawyer is unlikely to start a litigation for this instructor for free. Mindy's best hope is that others pressure this fellow to do the right thing.