DaveM993

Crystal Ball "On"

I predict that Regions who "require" instructors to take the students cars for a fam ride will decrease in number. Especially in light of the fact that most insurance companies are removing ANY coverage for track events. No matter how slow or safe, the fact is someone other than the owner is driving a car that is not, for all intents and purposes, insured. If Regions "require" this they are putting themselves smack dab in the middle of it if an unfortunate event (however unlikely) were to happen.

Crystal Ball "Off"

Personally I find it a little disturbing that a Region can "require" (I read force?, heavily influence, etc.) a student to hand over the keys to their car to someone else...for WHATEVER purpose. And before someone says the student can refuse...please...I would bet a year's salary that more than one green student has handed over the keys...and was not comfortable doing so.

mdex

This isn't an issue of should an instructor drive a students car, but rather what kind of instructors are being used. Anyone whom has an ego that requires them to "show off" in another's car shouldn't be an instructor, period. There is a risk every time you drive a car, for that matter a meteor can hit a students car in the parking lot, but there is no reason to believe that an instructor can't drive any car slowly around the track without incident.

There are too many cases of instructors crashing students cars... there is no excuse for this ever happening, and it brings up the question "how are we picking instructors, and what can we do better to ensure that we only use people with the right attitude?" If you need to prove your speed to anyone, especially your student, you have no business teaching.

Marc

Veloce Raptor

You guys are getting bent out of shape for the wrong reasons. This incident with Mindy's car was EXTREMELY rare, and even more so because the miscreant apparently is not being honorable (at least, based on what has been posted here...).

Thsi issue is not instructors driving students' cars for 3 laps at street speeds in Green. The issue is what happens when an instructor drives a student's car above 7/10ths and then runs out of talent.

DaveM993

How do we protect the student from this?

Veloce Raptor

I am not sure. #1: be aware of the club's insurance policy before allowing someone to drive yoru car.

Rick

I think that's key - there is some level of responsibility on the student or owner of the car.
I don't drive anyone else's car...period. There are times that I have someone driving my car (ie. co-driving a race) but that's only with someone that I thoroughly trust & know that he/she would be honorable and fair if anything happened.

SundayDriver

Is there any club that insures a student's car for physical damage when driven by an instructor on track? I would be surprised if there are any and I think that coverage would be insanely expensive if you could get it, at all.

Veloce Raptor

Mark, I don't know. I rarely drive students' cars anymore, and never above 7/10ths.

mdex

Rare, true, but I can think of 4 incidents in the last few years off the top of my head. The question is why are there people instructing that are of the type to drive a students car to the limits, how do we spot them, and how do we prevent this from happening going forward?

Marc

TD in DC

biting tongue . . . biting tongue . . . biting tongue . . .

Let's just say that I have strong views on this topic but I do not think it wise to air them in public on a BBS forum.

I will say that the waivers, which I believe can be very effective, are not a talisman that magically protects the club, instructors or students, although that does not mean I believe that any of these groups face unreasonable or unmanageable risk.

I am not providing legal advice now (nor will I in the future on a BBS). However, I will say that, as a general rule, (1) the organizer should write a good waiver; (2) everyone should be required to READ and SIGN the waiver or they do not get to participate; (3) activities and statements generally should be consistent with the waiver (i.e., everyone participating in any form whatsoever should have a reasonably consistent idea of what is expected); and (4) everyone should be reasonable and act in accordance with those expectations. The trouble all starts when you depart very far from these common sense steps. That's all I will say here

Veloce Raptor

really? 4? Wow. I can't think of more than 1 in the 2 regions I instruct, and said instructor made it 100% right.

RickBetterley

Hi Marc
I agree completely with this statement; there is really no reason for an instructor to be driving in such a way that the car is at risk (which is not to say that a combination of unusual events could lead to a loss).

SundayDriver

I think there should also be a common language document that clearly states that the student has waived rights, and if they allow anyone else to drive their car, or if their car is damaged by another driver's car, the other party has no legal obligation to compensate them for any damages.

Of course, that would probably chase a lot of new students away.

TD in DC

I understand the thinking, but saying something alone doesn't mean that a court will uphold it. Although I am not saying this is necessarily true with respect to the issue of a DE or racing waiver, with respect to some legal issues, you can actually weaken your position if the courts feel that you have overreached. Very complicated area, and I will go back to biting my tongue.

Rest assured that I share your goal of making our hobby safe and affordable for a long time to come.

Phokaioglaukos

It's good to read the waivers that we sign to enter the track (track owner) and to drive on the track (event sponsor), but the #1 practice point is to be certain that EVERYONE signs. Think of what happens in an incident where you have signed but the driver with whom you have collided has not. You have waived rights and he has not. We should not be at risk of participating with non-waiving drivers. That's why our PCA region requires signed waivers when one gets a wrist band and the waivers are pre-printed with the names of registered drivers. If there is name without a signature and the person is there, we try to get his signature.