Instructor Crashes Student's Car
01-10-2008, 06:05 PM
#31
Team Owner
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Letting someone else drive your car = opening yourself up to all kinds of problems for no reason.
01-10-2008, 06:07 PM
#32
I guess my only cnotribution to this would be:
Why didn't you get a ride in the Instructor's car, isntead of having him drive your car. I can think of four people who I'd let drive my car. All of them could write a check to repair or replace it. Beyond that, There's simply no body else I'd let drive my car...
Maybe I missed something, since I didn't read the previous post, but legally the guy isn't required to pay for the damages. You allowed him to drive your car on a closed race course. How he crashed it has nothing to do with liability. You "allowed" him to drive "YOUR" car. Am I missing something here?
Mike
Why didn't you get a ride in the Instructor's car, isntead of having him drive your car. I can think of four people who I'd let drive my car. All of them could write a check to repair or replace it. Beyond that, There's simply no body else I'd let drive my car...
Maybe I missed something, since I didn't read the previous post, but legally the guy isn't required to pay for the damages. You allowed him to drive your car on a closed race course. How he crashed it has nothing to do with liability. You "allowed" him to drive "YOUR" car. Am I missing something here?
Mike
01-10-2008, 06:53 PM
#33
Rennlist Member
Dell, I agree with what you wrote and how you explained your position. Yes it sucks. I traded cars once at VIR with another instructor (both 993's), his was a full GAC car with a 3.8. We both did lead/follow around the track and it escalated to a higher level run. We both received late passess into T1 with me following (it was easy to reel in my car with his bigger engine). I lost brakes at maybe the 300ft mark, to the floor, pumped etc with only getting them back at the apex with the car sideways . I was about ten feet from my own car as I had caught him at the apex. So there I was thinking "Sh*t, I am going to put a good dent in his car by hitting mine!!!!) When we talked in the pits, he commented
" That happened to me and someone else a couple of times, but we could never figure why it did it." I would have fixed both cars, regardless of the defect in this ABS which he later did find, but at the time........ I assumed the risk.
" That happened to me and someone else a couple of times, but we could never figure why it did it." I would have fixed both cars, regardless of the defect in this ABS which he later did find, but at the time........ I assumed the risk.
01-10-2008, 06:57 PM
#34
I'm in....
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
re: Never drive a student's car
If that is the consensus of opinion then why does the PCA National Instructors school use the instructor candidate's car?
01-10-2008, 07:02 PM
#35
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
It is important that this type of thread stay on the board,alot of people never consider this. Did't the track quest guy? Todd Serrota ? have the same issues ?
01-10-2008, 07:16 PM
#36
Race Car
Never take a car to the track, you can't afford to roll up into a ball and walk away from.
How much difference is this to someone cutting a tire and hitting you?
Yeah its a tough break, and somebody made a mistake and crashed a car... someone else's car.
Sad to say, won't be the last time that happens. it IS a race track... accidents happen.
Mixed Emotions on this though... How much pressure was there, to allow the use of car?
Mindy, did the crash happen in the Instructors session?
Last edited by mrbill_fl; 01-10-2008 at 07:45 PM.
01-10-2008, 07:36 PM
#37
The Penguin King
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Rennlist Member
Lawsuits for libel & defamation can be filed regardless of how justifiable. And then Mindy would have to spend tens of thousands of $$ on attorneys fees just to defend herself.
The fact that the other side has already lawyered up should be a red flag to not tempt a libel or defamation lawsuit. Frankly, I am a bit astonished at the relative lack of common sense evident in some parts of this thread.
The fact that the other side has already lawyered up should be a red flag to not tempt a libel or defamation lawsuit. Frankly, I am a bit astonished at the relative lack of common sense evident in some parts of this thread.
As far as instructors/others driving your car, I try to avoid this completely on the track (short of an un-helmeted first time out green run). I worry as much about something happening that is not the instructors fault that leaves both the instructor and the car owner feeling bad and concerned about who's fault it could be. Example -- a friend of mine who is an instructor was once driving someone's 996, when the engine blew, supposedly due to oil starvation (hope I'm getting this right, I'm no mechanic). It's clearly not the instructor's fault, but he ended up feeling bad, and at least at first, the car owner was pissed at the instructor. Crap happens.
Mindy, I'm sorry you've run into this problem. I sincerely hope is all works out for the best.
01-10-2008, 07:45 PM
#38
There are three distinct issues going on in this thread:
1. Whether the driver/instructor could be legally liable and/or morally obligated to pay for the damage. With respect to this issue, none of us here know all of the legally relevant facts, yet I am surprised at how many non-lawyers seem to know with 100% certainty who is liable/obligated to pay. If the lawyers wouldn't say, why would the non-lawyers be so certain? It is like a doctor making a diagnosis over the Internet, or someone giving mechanical advice about Porsches when they don't even work on their own cars: nobody worth his or her salt would dream of doing such a thing. So, as an attorney who is NOT giving legal advice at this moment, I would say that nobody here has any business predicting the likely outcome of this case. It just isn't rational, so why do it?
2. Whether instructors should drive student's cars. This issue has been discussed ad naseum, and this thread probably isn't the best place to discuss it.
3. Whether Mindy is wise for having starting this thread. I have given my opinion on this topic to Mindy in past threads. I am sure she understands how I feel about it, so I will not repeat it here.
On a more human note, I am very sorry for Mindy and Marc that this happened. I hope it eventually gets resolved to your satisfaction.
TD
1. Whether the driver/instructor could be legally liable and/or morally obligated to pay for the damage. With respect to this issue, none of us here know all of the legally relevant facts, yet I am surprised at how many non-lawyers seem to know with 100% certainty who is liable/obligated to pay. If the lawyers wouldn't say, why would the non-lawyers be so certain? It is like a doctor making a diagnosis over the Internet, or someone giving mechanical advice about Porsches when they don't even work on their own cars: nobody worth his or her salt would dream of doing such a thing. So, as an attorney who is NOT giving legal advice at this moment, I would say that nobody here has any business predicting the likely outcome of this case. It just isn't rational, so why do it?
2. Whether instructors should drive student's cars. This issue has been discussed ad naseum, and this thread probably isn't the best place to discuss it.
3. Whether Mindy is wise for having starting this thread. I have given my opinion on this topic to Mindy in past threads. I am sure she understands how I feel about it, so I will not repeat it here.
On a more human note, I am very sorry for Mindy and Marc that this happened. I hope it eventually gets resolved to your satisfaction.
TD
01-10-2008, 08:25 PM
#39
The Penguin King
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
There are three distinct issues going on in this thread:
1. Whether the driver/instructor could be legally liable and/or morally obligated to pay for the damage. With respect to this issue, none of us here know all of the legally relevant facts, yet I am surprised at how many non-lawyers seem to know with 100% certainty who is liable/obligated to pay. If the lawyers wouldn't say, why would the non-lawyers be so certain? It is like a doctor making a diagnosis over the Internet, or someone giving mechanical advice about Porsches when they don't even work on their own cars: nobody worth his or her salt would dream of doing such a thing. So, as an attorney who is NOT giving legal advice at this moment, I would say that nobody here has any business predicting the likely outcome of this case. It just isn't rational, so why do it?
2. Whether instructors should drive student's cars. This issue has been discussed ad naseum, and this thread probably isn't the best place to discuss it.
3. Whether Mindy is wise for having starting this thread. I have given my opinion on this topic to Mindy in past threads. I am sure she understands how I feel about it, so I will not repeat it here.
On a more human note, I am very sorry for Mindy and Marc that this happened. I hope it eventually gets resolved to your satisfaction.
TD
1. Whether the driver/instructor could be legally liable and/or morally obligated to pay for the damage. With respect to this issue, none of us here know all of the legally relevant facts, yet I am surprised at how many non-lawyers seem to know with 100% certainty who is liable/obligated to pay. If the lawyers wouldn't say, why would the non-lawyers be so certain? It is like a doctor making a diagnosis over the Internet, or someone giving mechanical advice about Porsches when they don't even work on their own cars: nobody worth his or her salt would dream of doing such a thing. So, as an attorney who is NOT giving legal advice at this moment, I would say that nobody here has any business predicting the likely outcome of this case. It just isn't rational, so why do it?
2. Whether instructors should drive student's cars. This issue has been discussed ad naseum, and this thread probably isn't the best place to discuss it.
3. Whether Mindy is wise for having starting this thread. I have given my opinion on this topic to Mindy in past threads. I am sure she understands how I feel about it, so I will not repeat it here.
On a more human note, I am very sorry for Mindy and Marc that this happened. I hope it eventually gets resolved to your satisfaction.
TD
01-10-2008, 09:42 PM
#40
Rennlist Member
01-10-2008, 09:50 PM
#41
Nordschleife Master
Sharing a car always carries risk. I've seen co-driver destroy really valuable cars at DE and races (993 RSCSs and new GT3s)...it always sucks. Unless you are willing to write a check for the car, never agree to drive it. Unless you are willing to flush your car down the toilet, never let someone else drive your car. Things just tend to go awry when $50-$100k gets involved.
01-10-2008, 10:15 PM
#42
Team Owner
In the 2 regions for which I instruct, the instructor drives the Green student's car, for 3 laps only, in the first Green session on Saturday, HELMETLESS, at street speeds, with no passing.
01-10-2008, 10:21 PM
#43
Rennlist Member
If I remember correctly, Todd did crash a students car. But I believe he wrote the guy a check for the full amount that day.
Sharing a car always carries risk. I've seen co-driver destroy really valuable cars at DE and races (993 RSCSs and new GT3s)...it always sucks. Unless you are willing to write a check for the car, never agree to drive it. Unless you are willing to flush your car down the toilet, never let someone else drive your car. Things just tend to go awry when $50-$100k gets involved.
Sharing a car always carries risk. I've seen co-driver destroy really valuable cars at DE and races (993 RSCSs and new GT3s)...it always sucks. Unless you are willing to write a check for the car, never agree to drive it. Unless you are willing to flush your car down the toilet, never let someone else drive your car. Things just tend to go awry when $50-$100k gets involved.
01-10-2008, 10:22 PM
#44
Burning Brakes
Strip off all the window-dressing, and this thread has nothing to do with the "law". It has everything to do with "character". Although we're all only reading one side of the story, I think we have read enough...and the facts presented (car crashed, no compensation offered) tell us everything we need to know. Is one of the parties involved somebody who you'll like to have teaching your children ? Cutting your lawn ? On your staff ? Frosting your bun at Cinnabon ? You'll all come to the same conclusion that I have, most likely.
I've been a Trackmasters instructor since...well...since Trackmasters didn't even HAVE instructors (ah...the "all open track days"...). I have no idea WTF "Paul Wilson" is. Not somebody who circulates in my world (although, the past few years, I only do 1-2 Trackmasters days a year). Please don't confuse "scumbag" with "organization who, without prior understanding of character, grants 'scumbag' the ability to prove his actual worth". If I was an event organizer, I'd be in a really bad situation here too, and I wouldn't be immediately eager to write a check for $20-30K if the miscreant had initially accepted responsiblity.
I don't have any illusions that this will be worked out "legally". Maybe somebody's lawyer can get an area variance, or change the zoning. Maybe even get a building permit issued. Maybe pigs will fly.
"Life" needs a filter. We all need some "magic screen" to allow us to see people's real inner character, before it has to manifest itself in good ways (always a joy, in work, play or love) or in bad ways (where did I stash that box of hollow-points ?). Sadly, this "magic screen" doesn't exist, and we have to experience this crap.
Mindy - I feel for you, but don't let this consume you. Poke this guy and make him as uncomfortable as possible, but rather than be angry, just revel in making him miserable, and make it a positive hobby for the next decade or so. I've come to accept that "I'm an incredible ******* when I want to be", that "I'm REALLY good at being an *******", and that "I REALLY ENJOY being an *******" (ask the people who work with me/around me/for me). You should, too. Figure out how to grow your talents in this area, and simply do what can come naturally. Being a constant irritant may be your only compensation...but you might as well enjoy it. Trust me...you CAN have fun with this.
I went to college with a Mindy Oppenheim...we alternated between being great friends and wanting to burn each other at the stake. The world can't be that small, can it ?
Carry on. I'm going back to my glass of India pale ale. You're all doing a fine job.
I've been a Trackmasters instructor since...well...since Trackmasters didn't even HAVE instructors (ah...the "all open track days"...). I have no idea WTF "Paul Wilson" is. Not somebody who circulates in my world (although, the past few years, I only do 1-2 Trackmasters days a year). Please don't confuse "scumbag" with "organization who, without prior understanding of character, grants 'scumbag' the ability to prove his actual worth". If I was an event organizer, I'd be in a really bad situation here too, and I wouldn't be immediately eager to write a check for $20-30K if the miscreant had initially accepted responsiblity.
I don't have any illusions that this will be worked out "legally". Maybe somebody's lawyer can get an area variance, or change the zoning. Maybe even get a building permit issued. Maybe pigs will fly.
"Life" needs a filter. We all need some "magic screen" to allow us to see people's real inner character, before it has to manifest itself in good ways (always a joy, in work, play or love) or in bad ways (where did I stash that box of hollow-points ?). Sadly, this "magic screen" doesn't exist, and we have to experience this crap.
Mindy - I feel for you, but don't let this consume you. Poke this guy and make him as uncomfortable as possible, but rather than be angry, just revel in making him miserable, and make it a positive hobby for the next decade or so. I've come to accept that "I'm an incredible ******* when I want to be", that "I'm REALLY good at being an *******", and that "I REALLY ENJOY being an *******" (ask the people who work with me/around me/for me). You should, too. Figure out how to grow your talents in this area, and simply do what can come naturally. Being a constant irritant may be your only compensation...but you might as well enjoy it. Trust me...you CAN have fun with this.
I went to college with a Mindy Oppenheim...we alternated between being great friends and wanting to burn each other at the stake. The world can't be that small, can it ?
Carry on. I'm going back to my glass of India pale ale. You're all doing a fine job.
Last edited by Professor Helmüt Tester; 01-10-2008 at 10:49 PM.
01-10-2008, 10:36 PM
#45
Just to clarify, I am not suggesting that Mindy has misstated the facts. I am saying that, even if what she says is true, we have zero idea whether there are other legally relevant facts, so it is silly to say that one side or the other would win in court, or that our hobby is more at risk due to the fact that it occurred. It is simply premature. TD