SundayDriver

I understand. There are always unintended consequences. The issue is that novices simply do not understand what risks they are assuming when they go to the track.

Even experienced folks make bad assumptions about risks.

TD in DC

You are spot on with this and I totally agree!!!!

I think that education of all students and instructors about what type of behavior is expected and the risks that accompany our hobby is crucial.

It is important that we never downplay the chance of harm to person or property. Also, if they stress in the classrooms that each car owner is responsible for damages to their own car (or whatever you want to say), this could only strengthen the effectiveness of the waivers (assuming the messages are consistent).

In short, you could tell everyone that they should have zero expectation that someone else will make them whole, and that it would be an unreasonable expectation for them to assume otherwise. If they are not comfortable with the risk, they should either drive their own car or simply go home.

RickBetterley

And, I sure wish that registrars would email the waivers in advance of the event so that drivers had a good opportunity to read them (and, no basis to argue that they did not have time read it).

SundayDriver

I think that is a great policy - very similar to SCCA. There is a waiver in the driver packet so they can keep track of who signed.

DaveM993

EXACTLY....and unless you have some fool proof method for ensuring this understanding, not from a legal perspective, but from a moral perspective..."requiring", or more accurately "pursuading", a student to hand over the keys for a familiarization ride no matter how "slow and safe" is unfair...IMHO. But that is only one student's opinion.

Phokaioglaukos

How can it be that this thread has grown so long and no one has written Ghetto Racer?

TR6

I think this is a good thing for everyone to assume. I know after reading a few of these threads, I would never assume anything without knowing specifically what the understanding is in advance. However, it seems that everytime one of these threads pops up about someone wrecking someone else's car, the first thing everyone does is talk about the driver's obligation to pay for all damages and if they don't, they are scum. So we all seem to agree that no one is legally obligated to pay a single dime, but anyone who doesn't pay is a worthless dog that shouldn't be allowed on the track. There's a bit of a disconnect there which is what keeps the debate in these threads going forever. I think in the various threads on this topic that I've seen, I recall one person saying that they would (could) not pay if they wrecked another's car and therefore, they do not drive anyone else's car.
Agree 100%. Send the waiver out via email or whatever in advance for review. No one has time to read the waivers (usually two of them) at the gate with 25 cars waiting behind you. If after reading it in advance, a registrant isn't comfortable with something in the waiver, they should opt to cancel out of the event (of course, no one ever will, but its the thought that counts...).

Phokaioglaukos

Many regions already have them on the web to be read when registering. BUT, all you really need to know is that the waiver says two or three different ways that if anything happens to injure you or your property you have NO recourse against anyone, the track owner, the sponsoring group or any other participant or guest, instructor or not.

You are also spot on that there is a major disconnect between the legal obligations among participants and sponsors and the moral behavior we hope and even expect to prevail. We just need to remember the difference between law, and legal remedies, on one hand, and the moral behavior we seek on the other hand.

bobt993

Mark is spot on. Novice/newbie drivers do not understand the consequences unless it happens to them. Take for instance driving on a rain soaked track at lower speeds. When a car ends up getting a dent, the first words out of the driver usually are " I was not going that fast and........." What is hard to get through to someone is not fast is still 40 to 80mph alot of the time. On public roads, most people can understand this to cause a hurtin, but on the track with no opposing traffic (hopefully) and less promixity to the surroundings, the alarm in their head seems to fade a little. I am going to emphasize this even more when instructing in the future.

Marc Shaw

The Northern BMW Club who holds an annual DE spells it out on their web site in a FAQ:

"Who is responsible if an instructor damages my car?

Unfortunately, you are, pursuant to the terms of your own insurance coverage.
You are not obliged to allow the instructor to drive your car. If you allow an instructor to drive your car to demonstrate technique, it is no different than lending your car to a friend."

RickBetterley

That is a very weird thing for them to say in the FAQ, although I admire the attempt. I doubt that the insurance policy held by the car owner says anything about instructors driving your car.
Better said, it would be a great thing to say to all drivers.

Phokaioglaukos

You're right, Rick. It really should say "Unfortunately, you are, although your personal auto insurance may cover the damage. Read your policy carefuly as many policies exclude any coverage for use of an auto on a race track, even if the event is driver education and not racing."

tfro

Oh really? I'll keep this in mind.

jester911

Amazing. 6 pages and we are still...

Z-man

I am almost certain that a Burger King local to Mr. Instructor is currently hiring for various day and night positions...

If not, it seems he has the personality that would dovetail nicely with a career as a greeter at Walmart...

While some may question his ability to instruct in a racecar, I am sure that he can handle:
"Would you like fries with that"
or
"Hello - welcome to Walmart."



-Z-man.