Instructor Crashes Student's Car
#76
I understand the thinking, but saying something alone doesn't mean that a court will uphold it. Although I am not saying this is necessarily true with respect to the issue of a DE or racing waiver, with respect to some legal issues, you can actually weaken your position if the courts feel that you have overreached. Very complicated area, and I will go back to biting my tongue.
Rest assured that I share your goal of making our hobby safe and affordable for a long time to come.
Rest assured that I share your goal of making our hobby safe and affordable for a long time to come.
Even experienced folks make bad assumptions about risks.
#77
I think that education of all students and instructors about what type of behavior is expected and the risks that accompany our hobby is crucial.
It is important that we never downplay the chance of harm to person or property. Also, if they stress in the classrooms that each car owner is responsible for damages to their own car (or whatever you want to say), this could only strengthen the effectiveness of the waivers (assuming the messages are consistent).
In short, you could tell everyone that they should have zero expectation that someone else will make them whole, and that it would be an unreasonable expectation for them to assume otherwise. If they are not comfortable with the risk, they should either drive their own car or simply go home.
#78
It's good to read the waivers that we sign to enter the track (track owner) and to drive on the track (event sponsor), but the #1 practice point is to be certain that EVERYONE signs. Think of what happens in an incident where you have signed but the driver with whom you have collided has not. You have waived rights and he has not. We should not be at risk of participating with non-waiving drivers. That's why our PCA region requires signed waivers when one gets a wrist band and the waivers are pre-printed with the names of registered drivers. If there is name without a signature and the person is there, we try to get his signature.
#79
It's good to read the waivers that we sign to enter the track (track owner) and to drive on the track (event sponsor), but the #1 practice point is to be certain that EVERYONE signs. Think of what happens in an incident where you have signed but the driver with whom you have collided has not. You have waived rights and he has not. We should not be at risk of participating with non-waiving drivers. That's why our PCA region requires signed waivers when one gets a wrist band and the waivers are pre-printed with the names of registered drivers. If there is name without a signature and the person is there, we try to get his signature.
#80
EXACTLY....and unless you have some fool proof method for ensuring this understanding, not from a legal perspective, but from a moral perspective..."requiring", or more accurately "pursuading", a student to hand over the keys for a familiarization ride no matter how "slow and safe" is unfair...IMHO. But that is only one student's opinion.
#82
...In short, you could tell everyone that they should have zero expectation that someone else will make them whole, and that it would be an unreasonable expectation for them to assume otherwise. If they are not comfortable with the risk, they should either drive their own car or simply go home.
Agree 100%. Send the waiver out via email or whatever in advance for review. No one has time to read the waivers (usually two of them) at the gate with 25 cars waiting behind you. If after reading it in advance, a registrant isn't comfortable with something in the waiver, they should opt to cancel out of the event (of course, no one ever will, but its the thought that counts...).
#83
Many regions already have them on the web to be read when registering. BUT, all you really need to know is that the waiver says two or three different ways that if anything happens to injure you or your property you have NO recourse against anyone, the track owner, the sponsoring group or any other participant or guest, instructor or not.
You are also spot on that there is a major disconnect between the legal obligations among participants and sponsors and the moral behavior we hope and even expect to prevail. We just need to remember the difference between law, and legal remedies, on one hand, and the moral behavior we seek on the other hand.
#84
Mark is spot on. Novice/newbie drivers do not understand the consequences unless it happens to them. Take for instance driving on a rain soaked track at lower speeds. When a car ends up getting a dent, the first words out of the driver usually are " I was not going that fast and........." What is hard to get through to someone is not fast is still 40 to 80mph alot of the time. On public roads, most people can understand this to cause a hurtin, but on the track with no opposing traffic (hopefully) and less promixity to the surroundings, the alarm in their head seems to fade a little. I am going to emphasize this even more when instructing in the future.
#85
The Northern BMW Club who holds an annual DE spells it out on their web site in a FAQ:
"Who is responsible if an instructor damages my car?
Unfortunately, you are, pursuant to the terms of your own insurance coverage.
You are not obliged to allow the instructor to drive your car. If you allow an instructor to drive your car to demonstrate technique, it is no different than lending your car to a friend."
"Who is responsible if an instructor damages my car?
Unfortunately, you are, pursuant to the terms of your own insurance coverage.
You are not obliged to allow the instructor to drive your car. If you allow an instructor to drive your car to demonstrate technique, it is no different than lending your car to a friend."
#86
Better said, it would be a great thing to say to all drivers.
#87
You're right, Rick. It really should say "Unfortunately, you are, although your personal auto insurance may cover the damage. Read your policy carefuly as many policies exclude any coverage for use of an auto on a race track, even if the event is driver education and not racing."
#90
I don't know this instructor, but I thought Mindy wrote that he did not have a car, that he "crewed" for a Noble owner in exchange for track fees and that that Noble had a techincal issue so that it could not be driven in the session. Also didn't Mindy say that he could not pay?
If not, it seems he has the personality that would dovetail nicely with a career as a greeter at Walmart...
While some may question his ability to instruct in a racecar, I am sure that he can handle:
"Would you like fries with that"
or
"Hello - welcome to Walmart."
-Z-man.