PCA medical committee revoked my race license
04-30-2024, 10:07 AM
#271
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Wow. I just finished reading the entire thread. Talk about tripping over a rabbit hole. I was just here to find info on grill cover options today!
But...that medical form.....
"Psychological Problems"? Are they kidding? Not very PC, PCA!!!
People are diagnosed with epilepsy or diabetes, or heart disease. They are not diagnosed with "Psychological Problems". What exactly are they talking about? Narcissists/Sociopaths? Bipolar I or II? There are meds for the latter, not much anyone can do about the former. Anxiety, depression, ADD, ADHD. All treatable/manageable conditions in 2024. Still "problems"?
Have they met the future drivers of the world? The completely self absorbed teens and 20 somethings who are obsessed with (self)diagnosing their "issues" via TikTok doctors? Will every kid that was given an antidepressant because they "couldn't deal" at some point in high school or college have to divulge their past history as a "psychological problem" because their scripts come back to haunt them on some secret PCA licensing database?
And what if you're "in therapy" seeing a psychologist/psychiatrist because, IDK, pick anything from the news: you're going through a divorce, your teen hates you, you're incredibly stressed at work and can't leave your job because your family needs the insurance, or you have a car fetish that's going to bankrupt your family (ok- gambling problem for regular people). Any random stressful real life scenario that happens to millions of people daily. Are these considered "psychological problems" that can arbitrarily disqualify you for a license because a committee of internists, family practitioners, and orthopedists decided they have more knowledge and training than your treating psychologist/psychiatrist? Absurd!
How does the committee handle the people in recovery if a doctor checks the "alcohol/drugs " box? Do they require random breathalyzers or drug tests? If the OSA patient has to submit CPAP data that shows they've been compliant for some whimsical time frame, how does the committee handle sobriety? A week, a month, a year, 10 years? Or are drivers in recovery automatically denied a license? Do they equate one bad night of sleep to one slip in sobriety? If not, how do they square the compliance for each? Not logical!
How about a driver with a prosthesis? They've come pretty far since the days of the wooden leg and iron hand, yet the list still refers to these conditions as "gross deformities"!!! Am I the only one who felt gross after reading that? And embarrassed for PCA? Have they never heard of the ADA?
Not trying to be facetious here, but the whole subject and process seems both ridiculous and very slippery slope-ish(new legal term). I understand the need for some type of "Know Your Customer" protocol, but it might be more appropriate for bankers and new HPDE drivers, not club racers/instructors.
Every driver on track has a vested intere$t in going home with their bodie$ and their car$ intact. At every level. At every event. Seems like that's what SCCA has decided as well.
Standing for your principles is admirable. I hope you can keep up the good fight. The penalty for your honesty should not be complacency in the face of an error in judgement.
You have much more patience than I would have if I were in your shoes. I'd probably be taking a page from the kids these days and going nuclear with a public shaming campaign to get the antiquated medical committee and its fiefdom cancelled. What do you have to lose?
#FREE LUIGI : posted obsessively on social media tagging PCA, PCA Club Racing, CVR, etc. with a link to an online petition.
You never know!
-Fiorio
But...that medical form.....
"Psychological Problems"? Are they kidding? Not very PC, PCA!!!
People are diagnosed with epilepsy or diabetes, or heart disease. They are not diagnosed with "Psychological Problems". What exactly are they talking about? Narcissists/Sociopaths? Bipolar I or II? There are meds for the latter, not much anyone can do about the former. Anxiety, depression, ADD, ADHD. All treatable/manageable conditions in 2024. Still "problems"?
Have they met the future drivers of the world? The completely self absorbed teens and 20 somethings who are obsessed with (self)diagnosing their "issues" via TikTok doctors? Will every kid that was given an antidepressant because they "couldn't deal" at some point in high school or college have to divulge their past history as a "psychological problem" because their scripts come back to haunt them on some secret PCA licensing database?
And what if you're "in therapy" seeing a psychologist/psychiatrist because, IDK, pick anything from the news: you're going through a divorce, your teen hates you, you're incredibly stressed at work and can't leave your job because your family needs the insurance, or you have a car fetish that's going to bankrupt your family (ok- gambling problem for regular people). Any random stressful real life scenario that happens to millions of people daily. Are these considered "psychological problems" that can arbitrarily disqualify you for a license because a committee of internists, family practitioners, and orthopedists decided they have more knowledge and training than your treating psychologist/psychiatrist? Absurd!
How does the committee handle the people in recovery if a doctor checks the "alcohol/drugs " box? Do they require random breathalyzers or drug tests? If the OSA patient has to submit CPAP data that shows they've been compliant for some whimsical time frame, how does the committee handle sobriety? A week, a month, a year, 10 years? Or are drivers in recovery automatically denied a license? Do they equate one bad night of sleep to one slip in sobriety? If not, how do they square the compliance for each? Not logical!
How about a driver with a prosthesis? They've come pretty far since the days of the wooden leg and iron hand, yet the list still refers to these conditions as "gross deformities"!!! Am I the only one who felt gross after reading that? And embarrassed for PCA? Have they never heard of the ADA?
Not trying to be facetious here, but the whole subject and process seems both ridiculous and very slippery slope-ish(new legal term). I understand the need for some type of "Know Your Customer" protocol, but it might be more appropriate for bankers and new HPDE drivers, not club racers/instructors.
Every driver on track has a vested intere$t in going home with their bodie$ and their car$ intact. At every level. At every event. Seems like that's what SCCA has decided as well.
Standing for your principles is admirable. I hope you can keep up the good fight. The penalty for your honesty should not be complacency in the face of an error in judgement.
You have much more patience than I would have if I were in your shoes. I'd probably be taking a page from the kids these days and going nuclear with a public shaming campaign to get the antiquated medical committee and its fiefdom cancelled. What do you have to lose?
#FREE LUIGI : posted obsessively on social media tagging PCA, PCA Club Racing, CVR, etc. with a link to an online petition.
You never know!
-Fiorio
Here is the medical form, for those who haven't seen it:
https://pcaclubracing.org/wp-content...Evaluation.pdf
What PCA is doing with this form is extremely invasive. In addition to disbanding the medical committee, they should revise the form medical form to describe the physical and mental demands of racing, describe examples of health issue which could make a person unable to race, and have the doctor sign off that the person does not have health issues which prevent them from racing. There should be no disclosure of any health conditions that the person has on the form.
How to resolve this? Send a petition to the club racing chair, copied to the EC, signed by many hundreds of club racers, demanding that the medical committee be disbanded and the form revised.
Last edited by Manifold; 04-30-2024 at 10:09 AM.
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04-30-2024, 10:37 AM
#273
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For the t shirt:
Should have a big picture of Luigi behind bars with the caption underneath.
Some hookers and blow in the background wouldn’t hurt either….
FREE LUIGI on the front and LET HIM RACE on the back.
Should have a big picture of Luigi behind bars with the caption underneath.
Some hookers and blow in the background wouldn’t hurt either….
FREE LUIGI on the front and LET HIM RACE on the back.
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04-30-2024, 10:40 AM
#274
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You make many good points.
Here is the medical form, for those who haven't seen it:
https://pcaclubracing.org/wp-content...Evaluation.pdf
What PCA is doing with this form is extremely invasive. In addition to disbanding the medical committee, they should revise the form medical form to describe the physical and mental demands of racing, describe examples of health issue which could make a person unable to race, and have the doctor sign off that the person does not have health issues which prevent them from racing. There should be no disclosure of any health conditions that the person has on the form.
How to resolve this? Send a petition to the club racing chair, copied to the EC, signed by many hundreds of club racers, demanding that the medical committee be disbanded and the form revised.
Here is the medical form, for those who haven't seen it:
https://pcaclubracing.org/wp-content...Evaluation.pdf
What PCA is doing with this form is extremely invasive. In addition to disbanding the medical committee, they should revise the form medical form to describe the physical and mental demands of racing, describe examples of health issue which could make a person unable to race, and have the doctor sign off that the person does not have health issues which prevent them from racing. There should be no disclosure of any health conditions that the person has on the form.
How to resolve this? Send a petition to the club racing chair, copied to the EC, signed by many hundreds of club racers, demanding that the medical committee be disbanded and the form revised.
I agree with your points and suggestions.
In its current form, I don't know many people who could pass muster with no questions asked.
Besides the discretionary aspect of the completed application, who wants to send their entire medical history to an @AOL address?
Who is privy to this information? How is it stored? How is it discussed/reviewed? In person, or circulating over email with committee memebers?
How are applicant's private medical files safeguarded from year to year? Private servers? An @aol email folder?
Lots of unnerving questions that PCA should be accountable for answering in today's day and age of data leaks and identity theft.
Glad someone else is going to design the sticker. My quick mock up looks too tame!
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04-30-2024, 11:31 AM
#275
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
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I am not going to be allowed to race at WGI but I will be there and I am going to see about getting some t-shirts printed. I appreciate any support which helps to change these crazy rules!
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04-30-2024, 11:33 AM
#276
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I had a long talk last night with Aaron Ambrosino who is our PCA President.
Aaron let me know that there was a recent conversation with Dr. Harry Kintzi and other members of the Club Race Committee. Dr. Kintzi’s position is that the medical committee’s use of DOT truck driver standards for PCA race car drivers with sleep apnea is correct. In short, the medical committee is refusing to back down, even though they can show no correlation between race car drivers and truck drivers.
Accordingly, my race license remains suspended, and I will not be driving at the PCA Watkins Glen Club race.
That being said, Aaron did ask to hear from people who have an opinion on this subject and that they should feel free to email him at president@pca.org
I let him know that I would post this request on RL and he was fine with that.
At this juncture, I think it will be difficult to get rid of the medical committee, and I have been advised that there is other work that they do which is beneficial to PCA.
My position is that the only medical requirement should be for a driver to submit a medical evaluation form, signed by their doctor, certifying that they are fit to race.
This is the standard used by virtually every other amateur race organization in the United States.
If you agree that this is the only standard PCA Club Racing needs, then please email Aaron and let him know your thoughts. If you are a CPAP user, or feel that the medical committee overstepped its authority in some way, please make sure to let Aaron know. The more emails he receives the greater the chance this issue gets taken seriously.
Although the process is tediously slow, I do believe Aaron is trying to work this issue out, so I do ask any emails sent to be respectful. Let him know what you think of Dr. Harry’s current policy and how you would like to see it changed.
I appreciate everyone who takes the time to make their opinion heard. Thank you.
Aaron let me know that there was a recent conversation with Dr. Harry Kintzi and other members of the Club Race Committee. Dr. Kintzi’s position is that the medical committee’s use of DOT truck driver standards for PCA race car drivers with sleep apnea is correct. In short, the medical committee is refusing to back down, even though they can show no correlation between race car drivers and truck drivers.
Accordingly, my race license remains suspended, and I will not be driving at the PCA Watkins Glen Club race.
That being said, Aaron did ask to hear from people who have an opinion on this subject and that they should feel free to email him at president@pca.org
I let him know that I would post this request on RL and he was fine with that.
At this juncture, I think it will be difficult to get rid of the medical committee, and I have been advised that there is other work that they do which is beneficial to PCA.
My position is that the only medical requirement should be for a driver to submit a medical evaluation form, signed by their doctor, certifying that they are fit to race.
This is the standard used by virtually every other amateur race organization in the United States.
If you agree that this is the only standard PCA Club Racing needs, then please email Aaron and let him know your thoughts. If you are a CPAP user, or feel that the medical committee overstepped its authority in some way, please make sure to let Aaron know. The more emails he receives the greater the chance this issue gets taken seriously.
Although the process is tediously slow, I do believe Aaron is trying to work this issue out, so I do ask any emails sent to be respectful. Let him know what you think of Dr. Harry’s current policy and how you would like to see it changed.
I appreciate everyone who takes the time to make their opinion heard. Thank you.
Last edited by LuigiVampa; 04-30-2024 at 11:34 AM.
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04-30-2024, 12:26 PM
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Email also sent.....
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04-30-2024, 12:39 PM
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Another thing to consider is that people on PCA committees, including likely the medical committee, are generally not employees of PCA. They are 'volunteers', which means that they do things to help the club, but they have no employment agreement nor any other formal relationship with PCA. In that sense, they're not really any different from a random person off the street in terms of what they can do with private information which is shared with them, and yet they are being provided with, and demanding, all sorts of private health information. I don't have a direct stake in this, since I don't race, but I find the whole situation outrageous and it pains me to see people being mistreated in the name of PCA.
Of course Kintzi will now dig his heels in, he won't admit he's been in the wrong all this time, even if he believes it. It's now up to the people 'above' him to tell him that his volunteer services are no longer needed, disband the medical committee, and fix the medical form.
Of course Kintzi will now dig his heels in, he won't admit he's been in the wrong all this time, even if he believes it. It's now up to the people 'above' him to tell him that his volunteer services are no longer needed, disband the medical committee, and fix the medical form.
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FunWithFiorio (04-30-2024)
04-30-2024, 01:18 PM
#281
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Another thing to consider is that people on PCA committees, including likely the medical committee, are generally not employees of PCA. They are 'volunteers', which means that they do things to help the club, but they have no employment agreement nor any other formal relationship with PCA. In that sense, they're not really any different from a random person off the street in terms of what they can do with private information which is shared with them, and yet they are being provided with, and demanding, all sorts of private health information. I don't have a direct stake in this, since I don't race, but I find the whole situation outrageous and it pains me to see people being mistreated in the name of PCA.
Of course Kintzi will now dig his heels in, he won't admit he's been in the wrong all this time, even if he believes it. It's now up to the people 'above' him to tell him that his volunteer services are no longer needed, disband the medical committee, and fix the medical form.
Of course Kintzi will now dig his heels in, he won't admit he's been in the wrong all this time, even if he believes it. It's now up to the people 'above' him to tell him that his volunteer services are no longer needed, disband the medical committee, and fix the medical form.
I don’t race either but this really hit a nerve.
I’ll be sending my thoughts to Aaron Ambrosino as well.
04-30-2024, 01:32 PM
#282
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If the Club Racing Medical Committee does other things for PCA, then put them under the PCA umbrella and not club racing. But, why does a car club need a medical committee? Are there going to be rally, autox, and social medical requirements?
If the Club Racing Medical Committee does other things for PCA, then put them under the PCA umbrella and not club racing. But, why does a car club need a medical committee? Are there going to be rally, autox, and social medical requirements?
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04-30-2024, 01:41 PM
#283
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It is really disappointing how many small, small, extremely weak people are in leadership or committee positions within what is supposed to be a fun car club. The fact that these folks don't have the stones to overrule this guy, Harry, who is clearly wrong and is obviously wrong to everyone who looks at this, speaks volumes.
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04-30-2024, 01:50 PM
#284
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Ahh- slippery slope-ish again…
Pretty sure every concours participant could be deemed to have “psychological problems “. Isn’t OCD a prerequisite to winning ?? That’s what my kids tell me….
I’d be more concerned about being hit by an undiagnosed, unexamined, unapproved novice autocrosser while ******** cones on track than a compliant OSA instructor falling asleep at the wheel in a race.
The absurdity of the entire situation is painful.
Put me on a list for a t-shirt please!
Pretty sure every concours participant could be deemed to have “psychological problems “. Isn’t OCD a prerequisite to winning ?? That’s what my kids tell me….
I’d be more concerned about being hit by an undiagnosed, unexamined, unapproved novice autocrosser while ******** cones on track than a compliant OSA instructor falling asleep at the wheel in a race.
The absurdity of the entire situation is painful.
Put me on a list for a t-shirt please!
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04-30-2024, 02:18 PM
#285
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T-Shirt Idea - Photoshop his actual face over his Steve McQueen profile pic. Can't imagine anything more perfect.
Also wondering, anyone else besides me ever grab a quick nap on the grid? When race starts got delayed after being strapped in and gridded up, I was always so relaxed before the race that I'd take that time to grab a quick nap. I'd get on the radio let the crew know I was checking out and they needed to wake me before it was time to roll out. Wondering if anyone else has done this? And if I tried it now, would they pull me out of the car and DQ me?
Also wondering, anyone else besides me ever grab a quick nap on the grid? When race starts got delayed after being strapped in and gridded up, I was always so relaxed before the race that I'd take that time to grab a quick nap. I'd get on the radio let the crew know I was checking out and they needed to wake me before it was time to roll out. Wondering if anyone else has done this? And if I tried it now, would they pull me out of the car and DQ me?
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