thebishman

The Medical Committee members aren’t morons, (probably/hopefully), but they are incredibly, arrogantly ignorant of OSA and whatever repercussions it might have to a driver on a road course engaged in high performance/ racing activities.

Does anyone have a list of the members of the PCA Medical Committee and their actual specialty?

Nowanker

I don't race with PCA, and I'm not even a member.
But I could rejoin...

As for falling asleep on the treadmill?
No, but almost did once on the elliptical, just from the sheer f*cking boredom.
Not really a factor out on track.
Have the esteemed members of that medical committee ever actually driven at speed?
And to quote Forrest Gump:
"Stupid is as stupid does..."

Speeds5

My understanding is they’re all current and past club racers. The policy needs revision or at least a review. I’m afraid that is a long process.

Veloce Raptor

I am justifiably commenting on their ACTIONS, not their book smarts or intelligence.

As I have already said. but by all means, keep digging that hole...

Words matter. yes, but apparently not to the esteemed medical committee, PCA legal beagles, and PCA leadership. Because Todd used lucid, well reasoned arguments. To no avail. We are now entering month 3 of this fiasco, and frankly, calling a spade a spade, which I am doing, is well-deserved & warranted. If you don't like it, oh well!

Manifold

This is the PCA Exec Council, and there is no medical or legal position:

https://www.pca.org/connect/executive-council

This is the PCA National Office, and there is again no medical or legal position:

https://www.pca.org/connect/national-office

These are the National Chairs, and there is a legal position, but no medical position:

https://www.pca.org/connect/national-committee-chairs

This is the plethora of people on the National Club Racing Committee, and the medical committee appears to be a subcommittee in this:

https://www.pca.org/connect/club-racing

The DE committee doesn't have any medical subcommittee, and there is no medical form that needs to be submitted to participate in DE. It doesn't make sense that DE doesn't need any medical committee or form, yet Club Racing needs a medical subcommittee of six people.

LuigiVampa

About half are current or former club racers. I asked Harry Kintzi, who raced as recently as a few years ago, ever felt like he was going to fall asleep while driving a race car. Their logic is that because they are racers they know better than my personal doctor.

The PCA bylaws do not specify the position of General Counsel, but the bylaws do allow the Executive Council to "appoint an Executive Vice President and such other persons as it may deem advisable to insure the proper operation of the Club. These appointments may be terminated by the Council or by the Board of Directors."

The PCA Manual of National Policy and Procedures (MNPP) lists several "general appointments" of which General Counsel is one, so I am sure that position is "legitimate". That being said, we the members do not elect the general counsel, the position is appointed by the Executive Council.

The bylaws contain eleven standing (permanent) committees of which Safety and Club Racing are two. There is no mention of a medical committee, but the powers of that committee could easily, and probably more correctly, have been under the Safety Committee. While the bylaws do allow the creation of "other Committees", and there are a bunch, the medical committee is not listed as one of them. Instead, the medical committee seems to be a sub-committee of Club Racing. The only problem is that I do not see an authority in the bylaws or MNPP for the creation of sub-committees. Generally, if something isn't specifically allowed, than it is prohibited.

The MNPP provides that the Club Race Chair has the responsibility to, among other things, "maintain current list of National Club Racing Team members, to include, but not limited to Club Racing Coordinator, Stewards, Scrutineers, Timing/Scoring, Advocate, Club Racing News Editor." This appears to give the Club Race Chair the power to appoint various members to various positions to administer the club racing program, but I do not see anything giving the Club Race Chair the power to create a sub-committee. That is sort of a lawyer's quibble in that the Chair is allowed to appoint people for various positions, and the name of a group of people is somewhat irrelevant. However, the medical committee would more rightly be structured under the Safety Committee.

More importantly, the MNPP provides that "the Club Racing Chair manages and has final authority over all Club Racing team members (volunteers and contracted entities) with regard to Club Racing functions, expenditures and 23 activities including, but not limited to National Licensing Coordinator, Stewards, Scrutineers, Timing, Club Racing News staff, Advocate Committee Representatives, Series Coordinators and Technical & Rules staff." The MNPP specifically provides that the Club Race Chair has final authority over everyone appointed by the Club Race Committee. That being said, the Club Race Chair refuses to overrule the medical committee.

I have pointed out all the above to the PCA President and Club Race Chair, and asked where the medical committee derives its authority from, and have not received any reply. The only writing I have ever found promulgated by the medical committee is the concussion policy and the medical evaluation form.

I've not received a single substantive answer from any member of PCA, whether elected of appointed. The absolute and complete lack of transparency for a member organization is disgusting and abusive. I've been told that it is a "process" and to "be patient". It's been over 60 days.

One of the best ideas would be for the Executive Council to put this to a referendum and allow the members to vote if we want a medical committee. That would save me the time of gathering about 5000 signatures and would also allow them to say that this is what the members wanted and they did not overrule the medical committee, even though the argument that there is some kind of liability attached to overruling them is laughable.

I continue to research everything and everyone connected to this matter and review my options as to how best resolve it.

thebishman

Difficult to pin down exactly who is who on the medical committee unless one knows their practice location, given about four of the names brings up several individuals.

My interest was in what type of Specialty they might practice in.

One I found does seem to be a Family Practice MD, and several others could be in Internal Medicine; Family Practice; Podiatry; Orthopaedics.

The Medical Coordinator, Dr. Kintzi appears to be an ER MD, and ‘Medical Legal Consultant’, probably meaning he spends a lot of time in a courtroom on Malpractice cases, but for which side, who knows?

Bloody lawyers! Oops, sorry Luigi! lol

LuigiVampa

Remember, I'm a tax attorney who is trying to let my clients keep more money and give less to the government. Unless you think the government knows how best to spend our money than please consider me one of the good attorneys, if such a thing exists.

If you log into your PCA account, you can see this list. I do not think it has been updated recently. For example, it is missing the 911CUP advocate.

https://www.pca.org/connect/club-racing

When I last looked about half of the doctors on the medical committee have ever been club racers, according to Rennpoints. Maybe they raced elsewhere.

Zhao

I'm no law taking guy but wouldn't by them saying they know better than your doctor (who signed you off as ok) they are now opening up a giant can of worms and making whos liable for the medical sign off a grey area? Seems to me they'd be smarter to just let the doctor signing off sign off and call it good.

Seems weird they're worried about someone falling asleep too. I've done 24 hour racing as the first driver, middle of the night, and the last driver with no rest for about 28-30 hours and what I learned is its amazing how awake I became as soon as I left the pits.

multi21

Never felt drowsy whilst on track, even in endurance racing as your mind is going all the time with scenarios, calculations, listening for any strange noises from the car, monitoring your radio... never.... On the other hand, when driving on the highway at normal speeds, yes as many of us sometimes do feel drowsy. Perhaps Luigi the medical committee issue is with your speed on track, even with the Cup car? In addition to the data provided by your 30 minute jog, can you provide race day data with lap times?

Sorry, man, this horse has been beaten up one side and the other and they've got their heels dug deep, don't know how this can be resolved in this calendar year at least. Are committee members appointed? Two year term on a rotating basis or they can be on for extended periods of time?

LuigiVampa

I did make the point about selectively verifying treatment for certain conditions, and not others, and how that could actually increase PCA's liability. I also said PCA seemed to be assuming a greater level of responsibility by acting as driver's de facto doctors in certain cases.

I asked PCA to show me one incident attributable to a driver falling asleep or having reduced focus because of lack of sleep. Nothing. They made changes to the 13/13 rules based on "data" so where is the data for their sleep apnea rule?

I guess winning the GTC6 championship in 2022 and coming in second in 2023 made them question my driving ability?

Committee members are appointed and do not appear to have specific terms.

needmoregarage

What do they mean by “Any examiner concern”? Do they reference the “examiner” as the racer’s personal physician? Or do they mean any concern brought up by the Medical Committee after examining the form?
If the latter, they have given themselves a “blank check” in terms of asking for more detail.

LuigiVampa

Examiner is the racer's doctor. However, the medical evaluation form says it is all at the discretion of PCA club racing and the medical committee.

From the medical evaluation form (underline added):

Based on this limited examination, and after review of all 3 pages, I RECOMMEND (acknowledging that PCA Club Racing Committee, including the Club Racing Medical Committee, has the final decision):

The Applicant appears FIT for sport of competitive racing
The Applicant appears fit, but I would like (or above rules require) this Medical Evaluation BE REVIEWED by PCA Club Racing Medical Committee
The Applicant is NOT CLEARED by me for the sport of competitive racing

stownsen914

Careful, that’ll be next!

Manifold

I’m pretty sure it won’t, because attendance at PCA DEs would be tanked if they did that, and that would end the DE program. There are lots of other options to do DEs, none of which require medical forms.