Massive crash at Laguna tody?
#121
I gotta be missing something here.
The car that was leaking oil KNEW he was leaking oil BEFORE he went out for that session? What?
Other drivers in that same session also KNEW that car was leaking oil before the session started? What?
I gotta be missing something here. How was that car leaking fluid allowed on the track to begin with? (And WTF was he thinking, or was he just NOT thinking?)
If this is actually the case, the "stuff happens" explanation goes right out the window, and there is some serious liability here on the part of the car that went out on track knowing he was already leaking fluid.
The car that was leaking oil KNEW he was leaking oil BEFORE he went out for that session? What?
Other drivers in that same session also KNEW that car was leaking oil before the session started? What?
I gotta be missing something here. How was that car leaking fluid allowed on the track to begin with? (And WTF was he thinking, or was he just NOT thinking?)
If this is actually the case, the "stuff happens" explanation goes right out the window, and there is some serious liability here on the part of the car that went out on track knowing he was already leaking fluid.
#122
Originally Posted by GVA-SFO
Frankly, I do not think you mitigate a significant part of the oil risk by technical "inspections".
For example, in a modern engine, you connect your computer and change some ratios in the ecu, ..and move out from a safe engine operation area, ...right into a dangerous place.
Thinking that technical inspection would control this is simply dreaming.
One (very sad) thing to say today is very different : no human presence on a hot track, and this with NO exception.
If you think that you can start today with a 10'000 dollars pretrack day inspection mandatory ..You can end up tomorrow with a 55mph speed limit on track.
Shall we also remember here about safety on track, that safety on roads, ..i.e., to arrive on track, we all accept and know that in the public roads, many drivers do NOT even have have an insurance. And this is why many of us have to have an additional insurance in case you get hit by an uninsred motorist.
So, please, let's try to not react in a irresponsive manner.
I'm the type of guy that would see the future of modern tracks in a different ways : no more flagmen, but cameras, sensors and large electronic panels all over the (track) place, all controlled by humans located in avery safe and comfy room.
Ok, this would probably raise the price of the track rental, but ..it would have saved a life of a great person last Sunday.
I continue to think that this is a very very sad story.
For example, in a modern engine, you connect your computer and change some ratios in the ecu, ..and move out from a safe engine operation area, ...right into a dangerous place.
Thinking that technical inspection would control this is simply dreaming.
One (very sad) thing to say today is very different : no human presence on a hot track, and this with NO exception.
If you think that you can start today with a 10'000 dollars pretrack day inspection mandatory ..You can end up tomorrow with a 55mph speed limit on track.
Shall we also remember here about safety on track, that safety on roads, ..i.e., to arrive on track, we all accept and know that in the public roads, many drivers do NOT even have have an insurance. And this is why many of us have to have an additional insurance in case you get hit by an uninsred motorist.
So, please, let's try to not react in a irresponsive manner.
I'm the type of guy that would see the future of modern tracks in a different ways : no more flagmen, but cameras, sensors and large electronic panels all over the (track) place, all controlled by humans located in avery safe and comfy room.
Ok, this would probably raise the price of the track rental, but ..it would have saved a life of a great person last Sunday.
I continue to think that this is a very very sad story.
Our local Colorado track has moved to LED flags in combination with a monitored camera system and some human manned flag stations.
To take it to the next level, why not have GPS flag beacons that are given to you (like when you wait in line at a restaurant). They are placed In Your car and display the proper flag immediately and precisely for which cars they want.
#123
I recently had someone come over to me in confidence at an event to tell me about a similar situation-Someone in a Mustang going out again knowing he had a leak. We Black flagged him & asked him to leave. There are some very stupid selfish people out there at times. There should be some additional responsibility for an action like that leading to an incident. I'm not an attorney.
#124
So this really wasn't caused just by bad luck and "stuff happens" on the track. This guy just didn't want to lose his paid track time and took his leaking car out anyway, to hell with anybody else. SMH.
"Natural instincts" have a way of causing bad things on the track if not mitigated by situational awareness/knowledge such as lifting while going "too fast" in a corner. The flagger, following those instincts, put himself at great risk and paid the price. The flagger probably knew not to go on a hot track, but this one looked really bad and he tried to help. It really is a shame and tragedy.
But hey, oil slick guy got in a few more laps. (Dripping sarcasm)
-Mike
"Natural instincts" have a way of causing bad things on the track if not mitigated by situational awareness/knowledge such as lifting while going "too fast" in a corner. The flagger, following those instincts, put himself at great risk and paid the price. The flagger probably knew not to go on a hot track, but this one looked really bad and he tried to help. It really is a shame and tragedy.
But hey, oil slick guy got in a few more laps. (Dripping sarcasm)
-Mike
I gotta be missing something here.
The car that was leaking oil KNEW he was leaking oil BEFORE he went out for that session? What?
Other drivers in that same session also KNEW that car was leaking oil before the session started? What?
I gotta be missing something here. How was that car leaking fluid allowed on the track to begin with? (And WTF was he thinking, or was he just NOT thinking?)
If this is actually the case, the "stuff happens" explanation goes right out the window, and there is some serious liability here on the part of the car that went out on track knowing he was already leaking fluid.
The car that was leaking oil KNEW he was leaking oil BEFORE he went out for that session? What?
Other drivers in that same session also KNEW that car was leaking oil before the session started? What?
I gotta be missing something here. How was that car leaking fluid allowed on the track to begin with? (And WTF was he thinking, or was he just NOT thinking?)
If this is actually the case, the "stuff happens" explanation goes right out the window, and there is some serious liability here on the part of the car that went out on track knowing he was already leaking fluid.
But bad facts make bad law and facts like these are how the hobby gets adversely affected.
#125
Our local Colorado track has moved to LED flags in combination with a monitored camera system and some human manned flag stations.
To take it to the next level, why not have GPS flag beacons that are given to you (like when you wait in line at a restaurant). They are placed In Your car and display the proper flag immediately and precisely for which cars they want.
To take it to the next level, why not have GPS flag beacons that are given to you (like when you wait in line at a restaurant). They are placed In Your car and display the proper flag immediately and precisely for which cars they want.
I have run with groups that did not have high discipline and just did not continue with them. At one event at Sears Point, the organization was so lax that after one run session I complained to the organizer who basically said buzz off. Packed it up and went home. Ignoring obvious mechanical issues is just as bad as ignoring bad driving
#126
Rennlist Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 13,415
Likes: 4,597
From: Mid-Atlantic (on land, not in the middle of the ocean)
I gotta be missing something here.
The car that was leaking oil KNEW he was leaking oil BEFORE he went out for that session? What?
Other drivers in that same session also KNEW that car was leaking oil before the session started? What?
I gotta be missing something here. How was that car leaking fluid allowed on the track to begin with? (And WTF was he thinking, or was he just NOT thinking?)
If this is actually the case, the "stuff happens" explanation goes right out the window, and there is some serious liability here on the part of the car that went out on track knowing he was already leaking fluid.
The car that was leaking oil KNEW he was leaking oil BEFORE he went out for that session? What?
Other drivers in that same session also KNEW that car was leaking oil before the session started? What?
I gotta be missing something here. How was that car leaking fluid allowed on the track to begin with? (And WTF was he thinking, or was he just NOT thinking?)
If this is actually the case, the "stuff happens" explanation goes right out the window, and there is some serious liability here on the part of the car that went out on track knowing he was already leaking fluid.
It doesn't always have to involve a substantial cost, often it's just a matter of being smarter, being vigilant and diligent, and making the system work better overall. The decades of experience in running DEs have brought DE to a level where effective best practices have been identified and the sport is relatively safe overall, but not all organizations and individuals follow those best practices, and there are no regulations or national standards to compel people to do so.
This incident *appears* to have involved several contributing factors (most incidents do):
- Older car which was leaking oil and dumped the oil on the track
- Warning sign of the leaking oil dismissed by the driver
- Other drivers who knew of the oil leak not reporting the issue to the event organizer (?)
- Questionable tech requirements (?)
- Missing corner worker at a key location (?)
- Corner worker deciding to violate a rule and put himself at risk in order to help others (?)
- The track runoff and safety features could also be factors, but they don't appear to be factors in the corner worker being hit (?)
I'm assuming and hoping that none of the drivers were significantly injured, though I expect that there will be some hefty repair bills given the equipment involved.
Last edited by Manifold; 10-19-2018 at 12:55 PM. Reason: Added to some ? marks
#127
I recently had someone come over to me in confidence at an event to tell me about a similar situation-Someone in a Mustang going out again knowing he had a leak. We Black flagged him & asked him to leave. There are some very stupid selfish people out there at times. There should be some additional responsibility for an action like that leading to an incident. I'm not an attorney.
I would never want to be the cause of someone's accident, never mind something which was avoidable. I just shake my head at what goes through people's heads.
#128
The car driver/owner that spilled the oil is infamous for mechanical issues and was told earlier that he was leaking oil... by the driver of the car who actually hit the flagger (they were parked beside each other in the paddock). Before the gravity of the situation was known; I talked to the owner of the RWB and his tech who was trying to clean up the oil on his rear bumper and it was still leaking a lot on the ground and told him that 3 cars were down and the flagger was down. He didn't understand the gravity of the situation as he just shrugged his shoulders and continued to just look over his car.
Someone explain to me why Thunderhill and LS (and all modern tracks) do not have an LED system? I've run at Spring Mountain and Thermal (years ago) with single point-controlled LEDs instead of flaggers and it is light years more safe and advanced than flag stations.
#129
I agree with Pete.
There have been multiple accounts from separate sources that say it was known that the driver of the RWB 911 was having issues. If it turns out to be true, I would ultimately place the results of this calamity on him. When you show up at a track day, you sign a tech form stating that your car is mechanically sound. We all know there are many people who don't take that form seriously. Track day organizers don't take the form seriously either. Any backyard mickey mouse mechanic that wants to drive a shoddy car on the racetrack can do it. It's scary and it's another case of a few bad apples ruining things for everybody. Tech for cars on a track day used to be a serious and real thing. Not anymore. It's all based on the honor system. There will always be dishonorable people who will disregard the safety of others as well as their own. Yes, certain failures just can't be predicted or avoided. It's the easy ones from pure neglect or shoddy work that should never be missed or allowed. It's added cost and time and a total waste for those of us that actually properly maintain and manage our cars, but the tradeoff has to be done because people always abuse the rules. It's a fact of life.
A while back, I addressed my concerns with HOD about letting a lemons car on track with mostly street cars on a track day. A rinky dink car that is literally falling apart shouldn't be on the same track as expensive track day toys, but my concerns were ignored. The number one reason I bought track insurance was because I don't trust the people I share the track with. I predict that changes to track days are coming as a result of this which are a long time coming. It's a shame that it had to take the life of someone for it to happen.
There have been multiple accounts from separate sources that say it was known that the driver of the RWB 911 was having issues. If it turns out to be true, I would ultimately place the results of this calamity on him. When you show up at a track day, you sign a tech form stating that your car is mechanically sound. We all know there are many people who don't take that form seriously. Track day organizers don't take the form seriously either. Any backyard mickey mouse mechanic that wants to drive a shoddy car on the racetrack can do it. It's scary and it's another case of a few bad apples ruining things for everybody. Tech for cars on a track day used to be a serious and real thing. Not anymore. It's all based on the honor system. There will always be dishonorable people who will disregard the safety of others as well as their own. Yes, certain failures just can't be predicted or avoided. It's the easy ones from pure neglect or shoddy work that should never be missed or allowed. It's added cost and time and a total waste for those of us that actually properly maintain and manage our cars, but the tradeoff has to be done because people always abuse the rules. It's a fact of life.
A while back, I addressed my concerns with HOD about letting a lemons car on track with mostly street cars on a track day. A rinky dink car that is literally falling apart shouldn't be on the same track as expensive track day toys, but my concerns were ignored. The number one reason I bought track insurance was because I don't trust the people I share the track with. I predict that changes to track days are coming as a result of this which are a long time coming. It's a shame that it had to take the life of someone for it to happen.
#131
Rennlist Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 13,415
Likes: 4,597
From: Mid-Atlantic (on land, not in the middle of the ocean)
I agree with Pete.
There have been multiple accounts from separate sources that say it was known that the driver of the RWB 911 was having issues. If it turns out to be true, I would ultimately place the results of this calamity on him. When you show up at a track day, you sign a tech form stating that your car is mechanically sound. We all know there are many people who don't take that form seriously. Track day organizers don't take the form seriously either. Any backyard mickey mouse mechanic that wants to drive a shoddy car on the racetrack can do it. It's scary and it's another case of a few bad apples ruining things for everybody. Tech for cars on a track day used to be a serious and real thing. Not anymore. It's all based on the honor system. There will always be dishonorable people who will disregard the safety of others as well as their own. Yes, certain failures just can't be predicted or avoided. It's the easy ones from pure neglect or shoddy work that should never be missed or allowed. It's added cost and time and a total waste for those of us that actually properly maintain and manage our cars, but the tradeoff has to be done because people always abuse the rules. It's a fact of life.
A while back, I addressed my concerns with HOD about letting a lemons car on track with mostly street cars on a track day. A rinky dink car that is literally falling apart shouldn't be on the same track as expensive track day toys, but my concerns were ignored. The number one reason I bought track insurance was because I don't trust the people I share the track with. I predict that changes to track days are coming as a result of this which are a long time coming. It's a shame that it had to take the life of someone for it to happen.
There have been multiple accounts from separate sources that say it was known that the driver of the RWB 911 was having issues. If it turns out to be true, I would ultimately place the results of this calamity on him. When you show up at a track day, you sign a tech form stating that your car is mechanically sound. We all know there are many people who don't take that form seriously. Track day organizers don't take the form seriously either. Any backyard mickey mouse mechanic that wants to drive a shoddy car on the racetrack can do it. It's scary and it's another case of a few bad apples ruining things for everybody. Tech for cars on a track day used to be a serious and real thing. Not anymore. It's all based on the honor system. There will always be dishonorable people who will disregard the safety of others as well as their own. Yes, certain failures just can't be predicted or avoided. It's the easy ones from pure neglect or shoddy work that should never be missed or allowed. It's added cost and time and a total waste for those of us that actually properly maintain and manage our cars, but the tradeoff has to be done because people always abuse the rules. It's a fact of life.
A while back, I addressed my concerns with HOD about letting a lemons car on track with mostly street cars on a track day. A rinky dink car that is literally falling apart shouldn't be on the same track as expensive track day toys, but my concerns were ignored. The number one reason I bought track insurance was because I don't trust the people I share the track with. I predict that changes to track days are coming as a result of this which are a long time coming. It's a shame that it had to take the life of someone for it to happen.
#134
Chill out, folks. Yes, a guy died and yes, it was likely avoidable in MANY ways. There's some conflicting information here from those who were on track in that session, and no info about why the worker was even on track. Based on everything we know (which isn't much), he almost certainly should have never been on that track to get hit. Almost certainly. But we don't know.
Calm down and stop with the speculation on who needs to go to jail. I mean if it's true that the guy who *told* the RWB guy he was leaking oil STILL managed to ball his car up because he was behind him, well, that's a bit crazy, too.
But what if the oil "leak" was known about and so tiny as to be insignificant? What if it had nothing to do with the fact that the thing just blew up? What if he missed a shift and blew it up? Is he negligent THEN? What if the corner worker had a medical condition that caused him to hallucinate and head out on a hot track and it just happened at the wrong time? I know, that's getting a little far fetched, but damn, there are a lot of factors at play and certainly more than a few at play that we don't know about (and may never).
No use convicting people here. Just no use.
--Donnie
Calm down and stop with the speculation on who needs to go to jail. I mean if it's true that the guy who *told* the RWB guy he was leaking oil STILL managed to ball his car up because he was behind him, well, that's a bit crazy, too.
But what if the oil "leak" was known about and so tiny as to be insignificant? What if it had nothing to do with the fact that the thing just blew up? What if he missed a shift and blew it up? Is he negligent THEN? What if the corner worker had a medical condition that caused him to hallucinate and head out on a hot track and it just happened at the wrong time? I know, that's getting a little far fetched, but damn, there are a lot of factors at play and certainly more than a few at play that we don't know about (and may never).
No use convicting people here. Just no use.
--Donnie