jdistefa

This is exactly the problem. The safety system (lack of flaggers) sucks at your affordable track day. Despite your laudable professed approach to blind corners with unmanned flag stations you cannot count on other participants to share your risk management values. What if, despite reduced intensity, you spin after a blind corner/elevation change and someone comes over the top and t-bones you? The underlying philosophy of a safety system is to assume that human error is will occur. What you are proposing is that everyone can be trained to behave the same way which is statistically unlikely.

pukka

I was asked to come comment on the above. MotorsportReg has had a driver logbook feature since 2005. It is most commonly used to capture student-instructor feedback in HPDE and track day events to help organizers provide proper instruction and run group placement but occasionally an organizer will log a "blacklist" entry when someone is no longer welcome to participate. Reasons I've seen include showing up under the influence of drugs or alcohol, physical altercations on or off the track, bad attitudes and repeated rules violations.

There are tens of thousands of records in the system, each of which can be optionally shared with other event organizers. They can review those notes before accepting a registration to reduce the chance for one bad apple to go somewhere new and cause more problems. It's one tool that can help prevent negative outcomes but there are usually many causes behind tragic events and that makes them hard to prevent (if not this one specifically, generally).

I'm very sorry for everyone involved and especially the friends and family of the corner worker who was a local here in the San Francisco area. My heart also goes out to the driver who hit the corner worker as they will undoubtedly be traumatized.

Jcolombotos

mikemessi

I'm not proposing anything. Just trying to open eyes to the reality of hpde days not being the same as race days. I want flaggers at every station. Most of the time there is not. Because of this I've adjusted my expectations and driving style. Not to do so is dangerous.

Manifold

DE cars can be just as fast as many race cars, and tend to have lesser safety systems than race cars. When you go off the track and crash, whether you're in a DE or race makes no difference as far as the physics of the crash and what could happen to your body, and the track runoff and safety features are usually the same. So the need for proper flagging is arguably no less in a DE than a race. Everyone slowing down for unflagged blind corners isn't a realistic expectation, and it wouldn't compensate for lack of flaggers anyway. Again, do it right, or don't do it all.

mikemessi

It might not have helped regarding the cars spinning. But it might have changed the actions of the flagger in 8. I have no idea what his intentions were and am not speculating. But if it was me without a flagger in 7 I might feel responsible for getting the warning out earlier and do something I might not otherwise.

rlrr183723

Two observations (without speculating):
- Yes, about 5 seconds from T6 flag station going out of view until T7 flag station coming into view.
- The oil streak started 100 feet or so before the T7 flag station.

Jcolombotos

alexaqui

Same thing with the many coolant pipe issues that drivers keep ignoring. People who even had them fail don't even bother to do the fix, they just got the same ones put in under warranty... ticking time bombs. Not sure why I should bear the financial responsibility for other people's laziness/cheapness/stupidity? I know of far too many totaled cars because of coolant line failures....

Akunob

This was a sad event, however the sole reason the track worker got hit was because he was at the WRONG place at the WRONG time. We may never know WHY he was out on a 'hot' track however from all indications he wasn't at his designated flag station. Sad but true. He may have been a hero, trying to warn oncoming drivers of either the oil on track or the spun car, (in an attempt to help avert further collisions on track) or he may have been trying to assist the driver in the first wreck, we may never truly know. That said, everything that happened before the incident (e.g., drivers noticing the RWB's oil leak in the paddock, the driver of the RWB car staging and going out regardless, the RWB suffering major oil leak on track, the cars following the RWB losing control, the cars hitting the wall/barriers etc.) are all hazards of track driving. We may try to prevent/mitigate these hazards as best as possible but if the track worker doesn't leave his flag station, he would most likely be alive today. We respect and appreciate track workers immensely, however I would not expect them nor does their job description call for them to risk their lives to protect my property (our cars). They are there to communicate with us, and keep us safe, from the relative safety of their flag stations.

We cannot take the draconian route and look to impose overly restrictive conditions at HPDE events as a result of this sad and unfortunate incident.

GVA-SFO

Well said, +1

Hatzenbach

Yeah, specifically if you take into account that the orange car (the one which got totally destroyed) didn't even have a rollbar of 6-pt harness/HANS.
Almost makes me wonder why I bother with all that additional safety in my (much slower) car (just kidding)

GVA-SFO

Yes, this is Off Topic, but we can talk about it : i.e.: from our lovely supplier, Porsche AG,
In 2007, I bought a brand new Cayenne S. About 20k miles later : Coolant pipes blow up on the freeway (sure, towing, courtesy car, repair under warranty..).
6 years later, in 2013, I bought a Panamera 4S, ..about 20k miles later : Coolant pipes blow up on the freeway (sure, again: towing, courtesy car, repair under warranty..).
Same engine, same problem, and this did also happen to thousand other customers.
How many tons of coolant have been spread on public roads, (where bikers and other cars have went through, ..before our great supplier took action to fix the simple engineering problem of the cooling lines ?

No comment, Porsche AG is not any better.

GVA-SFO

About Off Topic too, ..but and about the flagmen, (I consider that they are our Angels on track) and specially for the people that mention the lack of flagmen at "turn" 7 this sad day :

The 99.99% of the car drivers that I talk with just all praise about the Nürburgring, they all speak about this track as "THE" place to go !

Well, I have been there (on track) more than one time, and one thing that I can tell you is : I NEVER SEEN ANY FLAGMAN at any place THERE !

I do not know exactly how many curves there are, but one thing is clear, it is more than 100 and other thing is also clear: a good 50% of these curves are blind.
Not counting that the track is VERY narrow, and ..between the track and the triple rail (both side, all the way), you only have a little piece of grass, generally much less than 10 feets wide, ..and people still dream about going there !
..Not counting either, that on public days, you may arrive in a blind curve, ..to find things like a tourist bus, a moped or a old VW bug and etc..

Okay, fatalities at the Ring is VERY different too, ..but nobody talks/writes about.
Or: please, if you are crying about the lack of the flagman at "turn" 7 in Laguna Seca, stop to praise this stupid widow maker track that is nicknamed "the Ring".

Manifold

Sorry to be blunt, but this analysis is completely misguided. You're essentially saying that the corner worker's death was "solely" his own fault, and all of the other contributing factors amount to **** happens. Perhaps you've forgotten that multiple expensive cars were wrecked and those drivers could have been injured or killed.